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[Willem]

Adopt!

Hey Billy, I'd love to hear more about this. When have you seen adoption used to resuscitate family. How did it work? When did it work? Does it stick?

What does it mean to  Adopt? A piece of paper at the courthouse? How does one Adopt somebody? What do you do?

Have you seen adoption fail? If so, why did it fail? And what defines failure in an adoptive family situation? Hmmm.

I really want to explore these things.

[Fenriswolfr]

I have several questions about Dunbar's number:

1. Does it only apply to uhh.. human-to-human relationships.. could it apply to human-to-animal/plant relationships, even to human-to-item ? Or perhaps some offspin or what not of it?

2. Does the number say 150 mean 150 strong relationships (but takes a lot of time to maintain), but lets say different groups of 20 strong,  30 semi-strong, 100 average (based on the amount of time put in with different relationships/people).

or 150 strong, x semi-strong, x amount normal/weak etc.?
I mean I guess its all dynamic but.. just wondering different ways it could work? Perhaps my relationship the Dunbar's number needs work =P

[Willem]

1. Does it only apply to uhh.. human-to-human relationships.. could it apply to human-to-animal/plant relationships, even to human-to-item ? Or perhaps some offspin or what not of it?

It only applies to human people, as I understand it. Robin Dunbar examined why certain high-functioning human groups  peaked and split around a certain mean number.

2. Does the number say 150 mean 150 strong relationships (but takes a lot of time to maintain), but lets say different groups of 20 strong,  30 semi-strong, 100 average (based on the amount of time put in with different relationships/people).

I assume from this question I did a poor job of clarifying this in the article itself. 150 refers to how many intense, intimate, high-functioning relationships you can maintain in your network, an activity that requires high-amounts of social grooming to pull off.

Everything else follows from that...with the mean limit of 150, you can have any number of any level of intimacy, as long as you put in the work to pull it off. How does it break down, once you start investing less than required for a high-functioning and intimate relationship? I don't know that it even works linearly. I see it as entirely possible that you'd have to work a certain amount before you get into someone's in-group, and until you get there, they never really trust you. Once you get there, you've made it.

So the theory itself doesn't talk so much about this part of it. I do know other folks have looked into this kind of thing, the different levels/investment in intimacy over an array of relationships. You might consider posting it here if the mood strikes  you to google it.

I suppose that angle on the Dunbar's Number issue doesn't interest me as much the basic insight of fundamentally changing the orientation towards what we want from our relationships and family. But I don't know, I have more to learn about all this too!

[heyvictor]

I've been gone for a few days.
Willem, what I'm referring to is adding to our family by adopting people into it that we feel a close connection to.  This is regularly done in many cultures. A lot of people think of this as a token gesture to honor someone but I have seen and experienced situations where a grown adult person is adopted by someone in a ceremony and from that point on that person is a "relative" in every sense of the word. With the privileges and responsibilites. From what I've seen also it's for better or worse as well. Not just as long as there's no problems. Brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, nieces, nephews. It's very old and widespread but for some reason mainstream N. America with it's nuclear family mode of operating doesn't do it.
As an examplethere is an eldery Lakota woman (who my wife and I call Grandma) who has several adopted brothers, in addition to adopted sons and daughters. To her they are every bit as much her relatives a her blood kin are and all of her kin treat them that way as well.

In my own life I have two step children that I have been a father to since they were very young and my wife and I are taking another child into our lives now because our "sister" can't fulfill her mothering duties anymore. Both examples of "adoption".  This is a commitment that I'm talking about otherwise it doesn't accomplish anything.   

But many cultures extend these commitments to adopting adults too.

[Willem]

Cool! Exactly what I wanted to hear. Do you have any perspective on the difficulty of us modern folks adopting these traditional relationships?

I don't even know how to adopt, in the way you mean. Does it just amount to a choice, and sticking with it?

I don't understand fully.

[heyvictor]

I don't think I fully understand either.  You are reading the observations and interpretations of someone who did not grow up with these  kinds of practices but who has had some experience with them.

From what I have observed there are probably lots of reasons to adopt someone or to be adopted. Sometimes a persons family may be lacking in certain areas and so a person who can fill that place in might be adopted.  For instance if a family is lacking capable contributing men, they might adopt a brother or son or two.
A grandma who is raising her grandchildren may be concened that she will not live long enough to see them able to take care of themselves so she might adopt a daughter or son who will take over when grandma passes on.
Another example might be if a person has something they need or wish to pass on but there are prohibitions about passing it on to an outsider.  They may adopt someone in order to bring that person in and get around their outsider status.

What I see sometimes is that when a non Native person gets adopted by a Native family or person, they may feel honored and thrilled and jump right in but they may not fully understand the responsibilty part of it. Then because of their mainstream mindset they may go to all kinds of wierd places with it, feeling used and taken for a ride and all that. When all along this may have been obvious to someone from that culture. "Well why did you think we adopted you dude?"

Sometimes there may be a public ceremony so the new family member can be introduced to the community and their new status acknowleged. Sometimes it's fairly small with just those involved there. But commitments are made.

The woman I mentioned in my earlier post has three adopted brothers that I know and an adopted son and an adopted daughter.  All of whom were adopted by her as adults.  They were all adopted for reasons and they all contribute to supporting her and her family in what they do. At the time most of the men were adopted there were no healthy adult male members of her family that could do some of the work that was required for the services that she provides to her community.

The "sister"  I referred to in my earlier post is not my blood sister but she has been like a sister to me.  My wife and I were asked to be Godparents to her children and we said we would in a ceremony.  In the ceremony we commited ourselves to supporting her in her mothering in whatever way we could and to providing for a spiritual upbringing for her children.  To a lot of folks nowadays that is a token gesture that is hardly taken seriously. To us, we made a commitment and now the time has come to fulfill it.

Making these commitments with sincerity and being willing to put it on the line when called upon makes us all richer.

[Willem]

Making these commitments with sincerity and being willing to put it on the line when called upon makes us all richer.

Alright, now you've really fleshed it out even more. That helps a lot, thank you. It gives me a lot to think about. I still don't know where to go to next (if anywhere at all), but heck.

Hmmm.