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Author Topic: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number  (Read 3850 times)

Willem

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Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« on: January 25, 2008, 03:26:12 PM »

Not to toot my own horn (alright, toot toot, why hide it), but I just totally had a personal breakthrough on Dunbar's Number, the conception of a mean maximum for meaningful and high-functioning human social networks.

Check it out, yo:

http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/01/25/dumbing-down-dunbars-number/

If you want, you can post any reactions here. I almost don't get any comments on my blog anyway. Sigh.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 08:51:57 PM by Willem »
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timeLESS

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 04:16:03 AM »

Hmm i have an account on wordpress (even a blog, duh!) but i cant seem to log in to post a comment when visiting your blog. Otherwise i'd be happy to leave you a comment every now and then. I really like your blog, but think its the type of posts that leave you thinking and wondering instead of leaving witty remarks and arguments and all that stuff. So.... I think its great! and have loved reading many articles on it. Thanks for that!

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Willem

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 12:50:11 PM »

Hmm i have an account on wordpress (even a blog, duh!) but i cant seem to log in to post a comment when visiting your blog. Otherwise i'd be happy to leave you a comment every now and then. I really like your blog, but think its the type of posts that leave you thinking and wondering instead of leaving witty remarks and arguments and all that stuff. So.... I think its great! and have loved reading many articles on it. Thanks for that!



I think I fixed the comment problem. Thanks so much for appreciating my work!
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WildeRix

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2008, 10:18:03 AM »

willem, i love the influx of posts over at the college.  i keep coming back to find more and more things that really move me and stir my thoughts.

thanks for taking the comment posting security down a notch over there, too, as i always had trouble leaving comments, but don't any longer.

i really loved the dunbar's number post especially because it opened my eyes to the point that i had continued to miss -- namely that the numbers serve to point out the maintenance involved in maintaining quality relationships.
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Willem

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2008, 12:26:46 PM »

willem, i love the influx of posts over at the college.  i keep coming back to find more and more things that really move me and stir my thoughts.

Thanks Rix. I've had lots of personal insights lately for some reason. Perhaps thanks to Grandma Winter!

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thanks for taking the comment posting security down a notch over there, too, as i always had trouble leaving comments, but don't any longer.

And thanks for your comments!

Quote
i really loved the dunbar's number post especially because it opened my eyes to the point that i had continued to miss -- namely that the numbers serve to point out the maintenance involved in maintaining quality relationships.

Yeah, and just two months ago I sat in a classroom at a high school and blathered on about that 150 number, like I understood it. Sigh. When it finally hit me, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

I also thought 'Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number' worthy of Urban Scout style wordplay. I told him I probably should have just had him post it, as I probably channeled the Scout when I wrote it. :)


Admin note: fixed typo in code
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 12:43:59 PM by WildeRix »
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jhereg

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2008, 02:29:13 PM »

well, you know, as someone of germanic descent, ya just can't go wrong with alliteration!  :)
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Willem

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2008, 08:51:08 PM »

Ran Prieur just abused Dunbar's number again, in his essay "Beyond Civilized and Primitive'. He used the 'organize in cells of 150 people each' variation.

Sigh.

EDIT: I would complain directly to him, but today my passive-aggression apparently holds the reins.

Sigh.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 08:53:37 PM by Willem »
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jason

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2008, 09:07:23 PM »

I gave up on a direct rebuttal to that essay--it just seemed like each point got a little off track, and by the time you got even halfway down the page, we'd already wandered off into some arid scrubland on the other side of the mountains.
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Willem

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2008, 10:07:16 PM »

Seriously.

I get this feeling that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle and worldview just really bores Ran, and he wrote that essay (consciously or not) to intellectually justify how much it bores him.

Which I think accounts for 99% of the words written in any language anywhere (i.e., rationalizing one's feelings on a subject), so I don't mean to single him out. I've certainly done my share of that.

But really, I think a lot of these kinds of pontifications would get cut pretty short by actual, real experiences of the innovation, insight, and profound depths of the hunter-gatherer worldview. And the richness of deeply intimate and empathetic relationships with other-than-humans. Don't you think? Maybe someday he'll have a certain role-playing game he can try that will give him a peek. :)





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jason

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2008, 05:18:22 AM »

Heh heh heh--so you wandered past me while I dreamt one night and overheard that aspiration, eh?
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Huby7

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2008, 06:49:47 AM »

Willem,

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When your Grandma (if you luckily had one like this) said, “Family comes first - family matters most,” you may not have known the profound human survival wisdom embedded in that statement. When she, or any other relative or friend, pestered you to attend that party, or that event, that you passed up because it seemed such a waste of time, now you know you (and your children, and your family) have paid for that in the wages of depression, exhaustion, isolation, disconnectedness.

You know, my Grandmother still says that to this day.  And my Dad use to say it, too. But not to me anymore.

I agree with what you're trying to get across with this statement, but on the other hand families can be pretty messed up (Of course, I know you realize this). And I'm just speaking from my experience here.  At the age of 17 I moved in with my Grandparents and lived with them for close to six years.  And alongside us lived my uncle and his family, too. We all lived on a farm that was set on 40 acres in the sand country of Northwest Wisconsin.

I'm 33 years old as I type this. And to this day I don't know if I made the right choice back when I was 17 or not. I was a young man seeking some kind of security in a really messed up world. I thought I could find it in family, well, I was wrong. Anyway, I became SO depressed during that period of living with my Grandparents that I don't know if I can find the words to illustrate how bad I felt.  To this day I search for some kind of explanation as to why I felt the way I did at that young of age.

I just thought I would share this to kind of illustrate that I was in what would be considered by some here an ideal situation, but it was kind of a nightmare in alot of ways. Like I said before, I don't know what kind spin to put on it yet.

Perhaps someday I will sit down and write about this experience, I don't know.  But I thought I'd throw that little bit of information out into the mix here.  I'm not looking to disagree or debate about Willem's Dunbar post.  I'm just mostly processing my thoughts here.

Take care,

Curt

I had a big falling out with my family, and as it stands today I haven't been to an extended family gathering in over six years.  I have missed weddings, anniversaries, etc.  The only type of family gathering I do attend is only with my parents and sister's family.  Most of my extended family on my mother's side lives within 4 miles of me and I rarely ever talk to them.  It's really messed up.


BlueHeron

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2008, 02:44:47 PM »

Curt,

I felt for you when I read that.  You seem like such a kind and wise person.  Do you still feel depressed sometimes?

I've been struggling with depression too, especially ever since I had a direct-confrontation-style falling out with my dad (as opposed to his ordinary mind games/word dissection/criticism).  I don't know why, but I try (in vain) alternately to repair it or forget about the words we exchanged (just like I've always tried to pretend that things are happy between my parents and me).  I don't think that those couple of days of emotional torment and nightmares can be forgotten, however.  I haven't been the same since.

(Also not trying to detract from Dunbar's Number ... also processing my (Curt-inspired) thoughts... oops!)
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Huby7

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2008, 06:06:02 AM »

BlueHeron,

Thank you for your note.

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I felt for you when I read that.  You seem like such a kind and wise person.

Thank you for your kind words.

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Do you still feel depressed sometimes?


Actually, I don't.  Atleast nothing even close to the darkness I felt 7 or 8 years ago now.  I use to get really depressed at this time of year.  It's funny because just the other day I was reflecting on how much better my life seems to be going.

After reading Willem's posts about crying and grief I think the spirits may have helped me out, I don't know. But boy did I sure cry during that dark period.  Looking back I couldn't believe I had that many tears in me.  I was a mess. Someday I'm going to take the time and tell the story about this period in my life.  I still don't know how I made it through it.

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I've been struggling with depression too, especially ever since I had a direct-confrontation-style falling out with my dad (as opposed to his ordinary mind games/word dissection/criticism).  I don't know why, but I try (in vain) alternately to repair it or forget about the words we exchanged (just like I've always tried to pretend that things are happy between my parents and me).  I don't think that those couple of days of emotional torment and nightmares can be forgotten, however.  I haven't been the same since.

I'm really sorry to hear this.

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(Also not trying to detract from Dunbar's Number ... also processing my (Curt-inspired) thoughts... oops!)

Yeah, same here.  Sorry to take this thread away from its intended subject.

Take care,

Curt

Willem

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2008, 10:04:04 AM »

Two things-

First of all I think I deserve the Nobel Peace Prize for this particular blog post. I consider it one of the best insights I've personally had. I of course will caress the Prize only long enough to give it to Robin Dunbar himself, as I think his easily misinterpretable but absolutely foundational theory rocks the casbah.

Second Thing-

Talking about implications of Dunbar's Number in no way hijacks this thread. I think actually  you've revealed the implications of Dunbar's Number somewhat.

Whether we will or no, in health and wholeness Family counts as our greatest allies, and in domestication at times our worst enemy.

But the door of rewilding still has the word FAMILY written across the lintel. What do we do?
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heyvictor

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Re: Dumbing Down Dunbar's Number
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2008, 11:04:21 AM »

"But the door of rewilding still has the word FAMILY written across the lintel. What do we do?"


Adopt!
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