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[Willem]

For the awesome queer rewilders on the board, thanks for making this place that much better!

I've got a question for any of y'all who have an answer.

I've known for a while that genderless third person pronouns exist (alternatives to he, she, it, his hers, its, etc.), developed to rehabilitate the English bias. I don't know them off hand, I don't even know if more than one set exists. Please fill me in if anybody knows about this!

Also, I wonder what other queer languaging exists to de-fang the soul-eating bite of English. I've realized recently that these kinds of things express vital parts of E-primitive, and it really got me excited to realize folks started this work long before today, without any notion of rewilding or collapse.

[wildeyes]

concerning the pronouns, i've heard "ze" and "zir" used.

[Willem]

concerning the pronouns, i've heard "ze" and "zir" used.

Cool! Ze and Zir! They sound like the two mythical lands of Rewilding in Ancient Cascadia. I'll try them out.

[Willem]

I find those sorts of recently devised pronouns unpleasant.  This is a bit odd because I generally favor linguistic change.  Maybe it seems too forced....I hope this hasn't gone too far from the intended discussion.  It seems it has a bit, but I think the concept still relates strongly to the approach to the problems left by the existence of sexes and of genders, things that I do not intend to dismiss or make light of.

Plains:
I enjoyed your story, and if you'd like to discuss those issues please start a new topic separate from this one. I created this thread to celebrate this new pronouns, not examine the pros and cons of them. I'll move your post to a new thread to give you an opportunity to start that discussion.

[timeLESS]

Funny thing, in the finnish language they dont differentiate between he/she they just use the same word for both which is "hän". When i first learned about this i couldnt even imagine that this doesnt confuse at all. Of course it doesnt.

[Nodal Nim]

I like to occasionally play a legislation game that require players to write & amend th rules of th game (Nomic), & in writing out rules, th players sometimes use Spivak Pronouns.  Basically, they work by taking plural pronouns & lopping off th "th":

he/she/they -> ey (old form: e)
him/her/them -> em
his/her/their -> eir
his/hers/theirs -> eirs
himself/herself/themselves -> emself (old form: eirself)

I like th logic of these, but I found that they don't work so well spoken.  Ey sounds like A or Canadian eh; em sounds like 'em, a slurred them, or just M; eir sounds like air.

I agree wholeheartedly with th "gender neutral pronoun" movement, & would like to see a good set become adopted.  In th meantime, I appreciate when writers simply use female examples, or use 'she' for 'he or she,' because it forces people to face their own unconscious prejudice.  I consider Stephen Mitchell's among my favorite translations of th Tao Te Ching, largely because he uses 'she' as often (or more often) than 'he' when he talks about th ideal Taoist master.  It makes me think differently when I read it, & I appreciate that.  Who can really imagine a woman when they see 'he' written?  If you can, don't you find that it takes some serious conscious effort?

Sittingly,
Andrew

[The Prissiest Primitivist]

I like using "them/they" as a gender-neutral pronoun when referring to one person whose gender is unknown. Sure, it's incorrect now, but so many people use it anyway that we all get what a person's talking about when they (!!) use it. It feels more natural than anything people have invented specifically for this purpose. (Which isn't a surprise.)

[BlueHeron]

In Japanese, a lot of speech doesn't use pronouns, especially informal conversation.  Pronouns exist, but they are often not necessary (and in Japanese, if it's an unnecessary word, it's cut out!).  I have a really fractured knowledge of Japanese, so I can't go much into detail, but I'll try to use some examples.

For instance, when I worked at a Japanese restaurant, I would approach tables and say, "O-nomimono-wa,"  which translates to "Drink?" (or, non-literally, "Would you like anything to drink?")  It's not considered "pidgin" Japanese to ask a question with one word like that.  A Japanese speaker might say to a group of friends the simple word for "leave" followed by "wa" (which makes it a question) and they would understand the question, "Do you want to leave?"

Another example:  "I understand" is "Wakari-mashita."  Which translates more literally to, "It is understood."  So you could also use it to say "They understand" or "Tomoko understands."  No pronoun is needed; it depends on context.

[Fenriswolfr]

I took a semester of Japanese, ka, is the question marker

=P

But yeah, ever notice with a kid just learning to speak, they may say one word and the parent will know exactly what they want but make them speak a 'complete' sentence?

[TrollSplinter]

Se, ze and zir are the most "conventional" nuetral pronouns, but lots of people just come up with their own, like squee, and squir.

Also, I wonder what other queer languaging exists to de-fang the soul-eating bite of English. I've realized recently that these kinds of things express vital parts of E-primitive, and it really got me excited to realize folks started this work long before today, without any notion of rewilding or collapse.

I'm not sure if I understand you question, so let me know if I'm totally missing the mark...
There is the issue of how folks place validity on certain expressions of gender through language.
An obvious way that people do this is by using the term "real woman". This implies that trans women are fake, not very nice of course.
A more subtle term used within my community is "bio", sort for biological, added on to the front of gender. For example "bio-guy" as opposed to "trans-guy". I personaly don't use this distinction for a few reasons, the main one being that we are all biological, right? I mean if I'm not biological, what am I? Science carries a ridiculous amount of weight in our culture. I think "biological" means "valid" to a lot of people, and "trans" is an interesting theory to be dissected in debate.
I use "trans", and "non-trans", lots of folks dismiss it as cumbersome, but it uses exactly the same number of syllables as "bio".
That seems to be a huge problem with changing the language we have grown accustom to. Of course it seems cumbersome and forced, learning something new usually is. It begins to be natural, but not many people are driven to give it a shot.

[jason]

Of course, in Ojibwe, pronouns focus on personhood/non-personhood, rather than gender.

[BlueHeron]

I took a semester of Japanese, ka, is the question marker

Aagh, I knew that.  It's been a while!

Wa is the indicator for the subject of a sentence.  So "O-nominomo-wa" is like saying "drinks" where "drinks" are the new topic at hand, stressing the topicality of ordering drinks.... more like "drinks (exclamation point!)" ... "Time to order some drinks!" would be the non-literal meaning.  It works, within Japanese culture.  In America it would be rude for the server to go up to the table and say, "Time to order drinks now."  But it's not that way for restaurant manners in Japan.  Interruptions (server --> customer and vice-versa) are the norm.  (It drove me up the wall sometimes.)

Anyway... ahem ... off topic.

I think that in a small, tight-knit community, pronouns w/r/t gender would be less problematic.  People could pick their own preferred way of being referenced and it wouldn't be quite as awkward or difficult for others to remember which pronouns each person has chosen.  In a way, it would go along with remembering their name.

[WildeRix]

Funny thing, in the finnish language they dont differentiate between he/she they just use the same word for both which is "hän". When i first learned about this i couldnt even imagine that this doesnt confuse at all. Of course it doesnt.

Mandarin works the same way.  You use "ta" for singular third person and "ta-ren" for plural.  Context overcomes the ambiguities.

I like using "them/they" as a gender-neutral pronoun when referring to one person whose gender is unknown. Sure, it's incorrect now, but so many people use it anyway that we all get what a person's talking about when they (!!) use it. It feels more natural than anything people have invented specifically for this purpose. (Which isn't a surprise.)

I prefer using the plural as well.  It doesn't concern itself with gender, and has found a lot of usage in colloquial english as a gender-neutral option.  And I agree that it feels the most natural.

[Willem]

I didn't really want to start a thread on whether or not folks like gender-neutral language invention or not, but I see that it inspires some folks, so, groovy.

I originally went this direction not just because of binary he/she issues, but to get rid of IT.

I hate IT. IT kills. IT destroys relationships and lives.

I shy away from 'they and them' uses because they don't necessarily encourage one to stop using 'it'. 'It works', 'make it', 'I love it', 'deal with it', will probably still hang around, along with conceptualizations  of nonhumans as 'it'.

Unless someone can figure out how to make it stick. Anyone? Anyway, I see e-primitive as growing in this direction: NO MORE of 'IT'!

I don't see any life-affirming use whatsoever in the presence of 'it'.

[Neighbor Scout]

What do you say may "encourage one to stop using 'it'," Willem or anybody?  I'd like to know and don't really no where to begin.  Please share....nevermind....
 

NO MORE of 'IT'!

I must have read over this my first time around.  Well, with that say anybody got anymore ways that encourage getting rid of 'it'?  Please share.  Thanks.