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[mountain refugee]

Rewilders!
It is years I haven't seen someone who wants to only listen to my Ideas. I don't want to feel the same feeling in this forum. Don't let me feel mad. Tell me what you think about my crazy ideas. And here, willingness to kill, I don't give a damn to the survival of the fittest, but I do care about killing and being killed. I like it.

[marita]

I was curious what it is you like about killing and being killed?    We all have natural survival instincts of fight, flight or freeze,  flight is usually the first to come up under a threat.   If an animal can't run away from the threat, then fight comes up  (road rage, anyone???).   I was in a group of people talking about whether we could kill anybody,  and there were only two of us who unhesitatingly said "yes, absolutely"  ... we were both mothers,  and we both knew that if anything threatened our children we would do whatever we needed to to protect them.   You know how those mother bears are always the most dangerous     When neither flight nor fight is possible (almost all situations in civilization)  then we get stuck in a "freeze" response,  and so we  walk around like zombies.     Perhaps you are struggling with some freeze or frozen fight charge in your nervous system?   I think it was Tom Brown Jr. who said a warrior is the last to pick up the lance,   violence as a last resort for protection of the tribe.  I always consider any kind of coercion - including violence -  a failure .....  sometimes necessary but always a failure that the underlying threats and conflicts couldn't be worked out.    But that doesn't mean that the "fight" - or rage and anger of being hemmed in and violated isn't real and doesn't need an outlet.

[Willem]

Welcome back Mountain Refugee! Long time no see/read/hear!

[mountain refugee]

Welcome back Mountain Refugee! Long time no see/read/hear!

Thanx willem, I see you carefully monitor the tribe!

I was curious what it is you like about killing and being killed?    We all have natural survival instincts of fight, flight or freeze,  flight is usually the first to come up under a threat.   

Well, to be honest Im curious too! Total agreement with your analysis. Healthy creatures do choose flight if possible and, in the case of a reasoning animal, if appropriate. But this doesnt mean that when the time arrives to kill that healthy animal shouldn't like to fight, which means to kill or to be killed. Wounding or paralyzing generally wont do in a wild situation, at least in case of men. Revenge is the cause. So I agree that being a warrior or a layman, we better choose flight if possible, and we all do that, then I add that nevertheless fight has its own place, and I seriously like it and its consequences.
Lets put it this way. In the wild, conflict is a daily reality and in a good percentage of them fight is inescapable. So a savage wakes up in the morning and reminds himself that today a conflict may come up. He does this because he doesnt want to be suprised. And he knows that he may not be able to escape, so he must be ready for a fight, for death. If he doesn't like it then he would have a great contradiction all day "in his mind" even if a conflict doesnt happen. So he will eventually set his mind to await the fight. to long for it. to like it. The validity of this view is proved by observing the remaining wild and semi-wild tribes round the world, and I was fortunate enough to have access to some of them, Kurds and Turkmens of Iran. I strongly resist calling this behavior violence, which is entirely irrelevant.

Perhaps you are struggling with some freeze or frozen fight charge in your nervous system?   

As a civilized person(atleast historically) I share this trait with all my fellow civilians! But this doesn't affect the preceding the least. I think so.
Well its time to go back to my mountain refuge! Ill be back to hear what you all think.
MR

[marita]

What this brings to mind to me was an experience from when I was live trapping small mammals on the Konza prairie for a research project.   Most of the mice would go into freeze so I could weigh/measure/mark them.... but the 13 lined ground squirrels would go into a fight frenzy.... I could never hold onto those little guys, I had great admiration for that spirit.  that focussed adrenaline fueled fight is a force to behold.    I think part of the practice we do in martial arts is to prepare the body to respond appropriately to a threat, to not freeze.  and because of how domesticated we are, how conditioned we are to freeze, we need to practice.  and army basic training does the same thing to people?

[pagan48]

Perhaps a throwback to my Apache heritage, I found out that Fight rather than Flight always seemed to be the first reaction my body prepared for in a confrontation.
Military training showed me that Flight offers a better chance to live longer, albeit less rewarding to the ego. This training also showed me that when one has no choice but to fight that a mindset of do Anything to win is required to survive.
This mindset resulted in my becoming a well conditioned killing machine with whatever was at hand including my body. It became such a conditioned response that it was automatic in even the most mundane activities.
After years of military work the intelligent part of my brain realized that Fight or Flight always resulted from being placed in a situation that was contrary to my personal beliefs.
So while I have no moral objection to Killing another human when my life is in danger, I do however object to being "forced" into a situation that requires me to make that choice.
Life is not something precious that needs to be protected but it is something that makes us all brothers and sisters that are capable of protecting ourselves. That some choose to give up their life rather than fight, while others will fight to keep that life, is nothing more than a personal not a genetic choice.
Society and most civilizations try to rationalize this to the extremes, with the more decadent veiwing all life as cheap and not worth fighting for.
A personal view point of mine and is to be taken however you wish.

[mountain refugee]

So few reflections on so grave a subject.
Though I believe in my view point, I like to hear what other rewilders believe.
MR

[Sandwalker]

MR,

I think one of the signs that most societies nowadays are hoob (hopelessly out of balance) is that the men don't walk around day to day carrying weapons all the time, wherever they go. Some still do, but in most of the first world countries the only ones who do are the hunters and tribal people who still live full time out on the land.

This, to me, is unheard of in the history of the human species. We always carried weapons in the past, for hunting, for defence, mostly for opportunity hunting but also for defense against other humans and predators. One thing I miss about my childhood and teen years is walking around with my shotgun everywhere all the time out in the country where I lived. No one cared back then among my neighbors, I would walk in the open prairie for miles lugging that heavy ol 16 gauge, mostly just for the hell of it and for hunting birds now and then but nonetheless It just felt natural as a young boy to go out on the land carrying a weapon.

Whenever I am back out carrying a weapon in the country, whether it's the prairie or the desert, it's like I am a kid again and I feel at peace and more free or something, I t feels like that is how people were meant to travel and live, carrying weapons all the time, taking meat as the opportunity presents itself and having them ready for defence if necessary.

One of my good friends overseas always carries his Kalashnikov with him in his truck and in his camp, he doesn't use it for hunting much, but he likes having it around and I prefer that my close friends carry weapons, I think that people carrying weapons leads to a more respectful social situation, not all the time and in every case, but generally speaking. 

To live in a social situation where only uniformed police (and mafia/gangs) carry weapons while the rest of the populace is un-armed or without weapons, it just seems wrong to some basic instinct inside and I don't agree with it. It also seems to lead to more oppression and a loss of self-sufficiency and dependence on store-bought meat.

I would like to hear more of your thoughts, MR, in any case.

[mountain refugee]

Sandwalker,
I think your post implies that we are predators, killing creatures. And Big man doesnt like us to be predators. So we are tought to deny this instinct.
Now how can we rewild without embracing this very essential instinct? What would be the meaning of Wild man without predating? I ask you all.
MR

[Sandwalker]

MR,

I think we are taught to deny many instincts and natural behaviors in order to function and "get by" in modern-day society, especially in the cities. In order to meet our subsistence needs we are programmed to obtain money for the grocery store. We are taught to deceive ourselves that we can't get better, healthier meat through our own interaction with animals out on the land. That killing and cutting up an animal is disgusting, un-civilized, etc etc. All lies to keep us lazy, eat chips and pop, pay taxes, be apathetic, watch TV.

IMO we have to go back to living on the land as that is where the meat always is (as opposed to urban environments), go back to clan-based social arrangements, go back to carrying weapons, go back to hunting for our food and stop buying meat in the grocery store.

I am the most drawn to hunters and nomad herders because I have found I prefer hunting and herding compared to any other full time job and associating and living with those who do the same, people who don't mediate with alien social groups (like the big man) to obtain their meat. How can you feed yourself WTSHTF if you are always buying meat from someone else?  It will always be the most nutritious and important food so it makes sense to hunt or herd it yourself!

It's natural that a man feels empowerment when he obtains his own meat through his own effort. Likewise, it's natural that a man feels disempowered when he buys meat from some foreigner (clerk) and is cut off from the whole process of obtaining it himself (hunting-killing-butchering-cooking-eating-satisfaction).

I think people need to stop working jobs they hate and at least hunt/herd/keep chickens or pigs for half of their meat needs, and go from there. That's the only solution I can think of for people looking to re-wild. Start somewhere. I think it's the starting somewhere that have most people stuck.

I think the meaning of Wild man without predating in the natural way, is Domestic man predating on other domestic men, women, children, etc and getting in fights at the bar, at the football game, hitting the wife, and all the other modern ways men expend their predator energy when they should be utilizing that energy for hunting food.

[BlueHeron]

You make a lot of very good points Sandwalker.  I agree with a lot of what you said, but I'd also like to point out that women can feel that pride and empowerment in hunting, and not all men have to feel that way about it.

[Sandwalker]

Definitely! The only reason I don't write human or woman in place of man is because I tire of writing "he/she" and "her/him" all the time.