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[Sandwalker]

My closest brothers and their families have never touched a drink in their lives.  A few of the Bedouin I know have tried it once or twice and then never got around to any more drinking. It's not socially accepted and drinking is prohibited in Islam, and I completely agree with this and wouldn't have it any other way personally.

Most have never indulged. I can't say the same but I never drink with them, nor do I feel any desire to. I think part of the reason we get along so well is because we don’t drink, not for social occasions, not for weddings, not for anything. We have all the social connection and happiness we need from each other and the desert. We don’t need liquor to get along with one another.

I think that is a big reason why I don’t connect with many Europeans/Americans/Canadians. Many of them need to drink in order to have a good time, European culture has a long history of social drinking and it’s not only accepted, it’s expected when people get together.

I remember once in my camp me and Salem were by the fire with these tourists and they pulled out a bottle and offered us a drink. We both declined and I knew our minds were thinking the exact same thoughts.

We talked long into the night while the intoxicated tourists went to sleep and we both agreed that we were perfectly content spending the night out in the beautiful desert by the fire and with our meal of zaerb and tea, and what more could you want? Everything was here, we agreed. Why would tourists feel the need to drink on such a beautiful night?  I am glad many of the Bedouin feel this way and are appalled by the drinking they witness, rather than trying it for themselves and accepting the invitation to drink.

[Peter Bauer]

It would be an interesting thing indeed, if someone offered you a drink and you offered them sobriety.

"would you like a drink?"

"No thanks. Would you like to not drink with me?"

I wonder what they would say... 

[timeLESS]

AS ive posted somewhere else on this forum i also, am a recovering alcoholic. I do not think alcohol is in itself a bad thing, i know people who enjoy it in well dosed ways. Alas i am not one of them. Like US i didnt drink everyday, i could go for days without drinking and  not feel bad. My problem too lies in the "drink one - drink all " category. Gambling with my life seems a fit description. I choose to stop. I did not feel obliged to stop, people didnt ask me to stop, if they woud have i probably wouldnt listen anyway. I saw hurt in their eyes. My drinking problems does not make the life of the people around me any nicer. It makes it more painful and they too might reflect my pain in different ways.

At first my friends reacted in a very macho-scripted manner. I think they felt as if i attacked them somehow by stopping drinking. But now they are used to it and mostly ignore it. I know they appreciate it though, i jsut notice these things in my communication with them which is more relaxed and carefree. They appreciate what ive done but i somehow do not allow themselves to show this too much especially when in groups. This to me shows that even my anarchist or "free-thinker"  friends struggle with behavioural patterns (spelled correct).

well. take care.

[wildandfreehumyn]

i have found when we release ourselves from our own addictions, traps of unmet needs and disempowerment, we grow wilder

[wildandfreehumyn]

We talked long into the night while the intoxicated tourists went to sleep and we both agreed that we were perfectly content spending the night out in the beautiful desert by the fire and with our meal of zaerb and tea, and what more could you want? Everything was here, we agreed. Why would tourists feel the need to drink on such a beautiful night?  I am glad many of the Bedouin feel this way and are appalled by the drinking they witness, rather than trying it for themselves and accepting the invitation to drink.

wow, just reading that was incredible.  it must have felt magnificent to have felt that with someone else.

[pidgeon]

I say it depends on the person, their culture and the length their culture has had experience with alcohol. and how far removed their cultural memory is from a sustainable culture.

For myself, it's both food and medicine (and sacrament). But, for many of my relations, even though we've had at least a 6000 year history with alcohol when the culture that sustained us for thousands of years was destroyed, it became a poison.

For someone whose culture had no experience with alcohol and whose cultural memory is not far removed from a sustainable culture but if forced to live in this nightmare that the civilized have created, I could definitely see it as a poison.

My question is , is it the alcohol that is the poison or is it a symptom of the disease of civilization, where the abuse of alcohol is a way of self-medicating against the disease of civilization.  Thoughts?

[BlueHeron]

My question is , is it the alcohol that is the poison or is it a symptom of the disease of civilization, where the abuse of alcohol is a way of self-medicating against the disease of civilization.  Thoughts?

Well, my impression is that alcohol becomes a poison if your body is exposed to too much of it on a regular basis.  It is physically and psychologically addictive (moreso than many other psychological addictions because of the so-called "freedom" you get from it [although less psych. addictive, I realize, than other things, for example, cocaine]).  I think that people are looking for that uninhibited freedom because of the confining, limiting nature of civ.  Even if you're aware of civilization's influence and you're trying to step out of it, you're still trapped (by your past/formative experiences as well as your present needs -- very few people can say they've actually stepped outside of civilization and can do so indefinitely).

But - regarding alcohol - I wouldn't call it "poison" for somebody who has a couple drinks a week and really can stop any time.  Then it's just a recreational drug (funny to think of it that way though) 

[TrollSplinter]

I have a couple of friends that I would definitely consider alcoholics, they would agree with me. However, in their minds their choices are alcohol, or suicide. I don't like how much they are dependent on this substance that is slowly destroying them, but I am glad they are still around. It seems that while alcohol is poisoning them, it is also the main reason they aren't dead yet  . I can't stand what this culture does to people.

[timeLESS]

I have a couple of friends that I would definitely consider alcoholics, they would agree with me. However, in their minds their choices are alcohol, or suicide. I don't like how much they are dependent on this substance that is slowly destroying them, but I am glad they are still around. It seems that while alcohol is poisoning them, it is also the main reason they aren't dead yet  . I can't stand what this culture does to people.

I have never met your friends, yet i doubt they would actually kill themselves would they never had a drink again. Again I do not mean in anyway to pretend to know better then they do how they feel but i just want to say that the very way they think (if they are alcoholic) is tainted by this alcoholism. So they might tell themselves they'd kill themselves (and honestly believe and thus speaking truthfully) when they'd stop drinking, only to find out that they really dont wanna die after they'd actually stop drinking. Alcoholism is an addiction like any other and addicts need their fix and they need to rationalize their fix so to not feel guilty getting fuckedup. So they make the proposition : If i drink im getting fuckedup, but if i dont drink..........id die.

Ive been a drunk for a long time...one of the reason i drunk was to forget i was a drunk....go figure....

[BlueHeron]

I dunno ... addicts in recovery are often suicidal.  Depends on the addiction, & alcohol IS one of those substances that is physically addictive.

I have a friend who got into cocaine at the age of 13 or 14 (This was around 1980).  His family was very wealthy, and the $6000/month that he spent on that shit went virtually unnoticed.  When he was 17, his dealer/friend was murdered.  The murderers used meat hooks (I kid you not) to kill him in an old abandoned building somewhere in Oregon.

This was enough to cause him to question his usage and the warped culture of addiction of which he was a part.  So he asked a friend to lock him in the basement for a week so that he could go through withdrawal, and to not let him out under ANY circumstances.  He "safety proofed" the basement beforehand so he could not kill himself.  He told me that, even now, almost 25 years later, he believes it had been necessary to prevent himself from suicide while in withdrawal.

I've heard that alcohol is more physically addictive than cocaine.  (Can anyone negate or affirm that?)  If so, then TrollSplinter's friends may not be exaggerating.

[timeLESS]

i wanted to write a text on the difference between the ideas when in active-addiction and those in recovery but i couldnt get to the point. I wrote 2 long and confusing texts and deleted them again. My thoughts on alcoholism are all from own experience and therefore rather difficult to write down in english for me. I do believe though that anyone can essentially recover, the big question often boils down to: do we really want to recover?

[Sandwalker]

For someone whose culture had no experience with alcohol and whose cultural memory is not far removed from a sustainable culture but if forced to live in this nightmare that the civilized have created, I could definitely see it as a poison.

This is what I seen in southern Namibia with a tribe of relocated Bushmen. They were all drinking and trying to make do the best they could with their situation, from what I witnessed and from talking to some of them I would say it definitely is a poison, but I don't blame them for turning to the bottle, They are adjusting the best they can.

I do however think that it would be better for the bars and establishments who sell liquors to close down or change their business and stop profiting from the ruination of lives and human suffering. I can think of a handful of other "industries" that are doing the same thing.

[heyvictor]

We have to hit rock bottom to quit. And even then, each day, sometimes each moment, presents the choice all over again. What constitutes rock bottom is different for each person.  For some, rock bottom may be losing their job or their marriage or it may just be a close call, but for others death comes before rock bottom. That's a hard thing for people who love that person to come to grips with.

[TonyZ]

an answer the cocaine v alcohol question -- never had I the feel, once the 'buzz' of a drink was wearing off, that I REALLY wanted another drink. cocaine does it to me everytime, and I just happen to have what it takes to say, what I had was enough, that was fun, and now back to the world without cocaine.

I think your grounding in the world of chemicals your body can produce has a lot to do with it. if you are trying to escape your own chemical world, into someone or something else's chemical world, then that place becomes home to you, and yourself becomes this place you are trying to leave. If you don't want to simply visit these other worlds, and come back to your own world when you are done, then, I guess, this could be the chemical and spiritual root of addiction, not being okay in your own emotional and chemical 'cloud' becoming dependent on constant injections into your cloud.

perhaps there is something to the anal-retentive need for order, and how first usages of many chemicals do appear to bring order to the world, as it's signal so overwhelmingly tunes out the other influences of the noosphere.

[heyvictor]

Don Burnstick is an awesome guy.  I am Alcohol is a very powerful one man play on video.

http://www.donburnstick.com/v2/index.php

For a very funny look at contemporary Canadian First Nations culture check out his videos if you can.