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[Penny Scout]

I think probably many of us are in intimate relationships with people and have friends and family members who like civilization (or think it can be fixed, or think maybe it sucks but that it will never go away) and don't really agree with our philosophies. I am curious how many people deal with this versus how many are lucky enough to have friends and family on their side? How do you deal with it? Do you argue? Do you ingore it? Are you subversive or secretive? Do you try to lead by example and just show how awesome rewilding is hoping they will come around? Do you give them stacks books to read? Do you figure everyone who thought you were nutty will be knocking at your door when civilization collapses and that will be your moment to shine?

[WildeRix]

Yes.  All the above.

Here are some specific examples from my life.

My wife:

She cried when I told her about peak oil.  She just can't handle thinking about it.  Not so much because of how much she loves civilization (though she loves it a lot) but because she couldn't bear to think about all the people that would suffer.  I wanted to get to the point where I could tell her it would be a good think in the end, that once we got to live a stone-age life in tribes we'd be much happier.  I have not brought the subject up with her since.  I've always been into herbology and primitive skills, and she expresses her excitement over my excitement, but we never talk about why I'm doing these things.

My friend Luke:

He had read Ishmael before, and felt the reasons why civilization doesn't work, but I don't know if he had ever thought about actively trying to leave the civ.  He was probably more of a "fuck all humans" kind of mindset.  Once I told him about Peak Oil and the possibility that we could live without civilization in our lifetime, he got really excited with me, and he has been an active participant in rewilding with me.

We tend to focus on different aspects of rewilding.  He has a stronger connection to the spiritual realm, while I have a stronger connection to the physical realm.  So we each focus on our strengths and share them with the other.  I liken us to Creb and Iza from the Clan of the Cave Bear.

Other friends:

Most of the other people I know find the concept interesting or right on or they accept the concept intellectually but not wholeheartedly.  I keep trying to spread the good news and share rewilding ideas with them.  I recommend books.  With some friends I have argued.  With others, we have had really good conversations.

I do think that whatever nuttiness the less-receptive ones see in me will fade as the civ starts going down.  I hope so, at least.  I have a lot of good friends with a lot of good talents, and I want them to be a part of this experience with me.

[Peter Bauer]

Yeah, like rix said... all of the above.

At this point, if I'm going to date someone, they'd better at least intellectually "get it." That they do anything because of it, or change their lives because of it may be asking too much at this point.

My first girlfriend and I were always fighting about it, which led me to suppress it, especially the spiritual side (which turns out was a good thing after all) but the rest really made me not happy. I broke up with her (for the last time) after she says, "Peter, I finally figured out the difference between us; you hate civilization... and I LOVE it!"

Seriously.

Of course, she didn't understand that telling me she loved civilization was metaphorically equivolent to saying she loved genocide and devouring the earth. To her, civilization has rock shows and art gallery openings and fine dining. All wonderful things on the surface, but what made those things possible? She didn't want to hear it. I mean, this was AFTER I took her to a Derrick Jensen talk.

Haha. Sasha may not have dropped out of college and run to the woods, but at least she "gets" it, and loves to go camping and hiking and tracking.

Again, I don't care much about ideology. I care more about support. In a way, I couldn't support my first girlfriend because I couldn't support her investment in civilization. I mean, even if she had been political... or shown she cared about positive change, I probably could have supported that. But she just wanted to design clothes. Which is fine, but not someone I could be with.

[Penny Scout]

Thanks guys, that's exactly what I was wondering. As for me well Nick is borderline we have a lot in common but sometimes the rewilding thing causes problems. We started going out exactly because he likes plants and nature and camping. We eat a lot of wild foods, have been fishing lately, we listened to all the bird language tapes together plus he is a crazy gun nut type survivalist. He's more afraid of guys coming around putting everyone in concentration camps than anything else. I support him. I find that interest jives well with mine. 

But I know he doesn't really think civilization is going to collapse in our lifetimes and he's of the "if you blow up a dam people will just rebuild it camp." He doesn't think it will ever stay collapsed. He doesn't even think there would be a big population crash because people will just start breeding like crazy like in the third world. So I just try not to get into it at all. We had an argument once because I maintained that stone age people were better nourished than us because even though the didn't have access to so much food they ate more vitamins and minerals and less stuff that is bad for you and he maintained that was a stupid idea. So really how do you argue with that.

On the other hand he once admitted that civilization was not good. He just happens to think that primtivism is not better. When he is depressed he laments our materialistic culture but he says he'd leave me fore a rich girl. I don't know if he is joking or not. I can trick him into coming up with plans to take down powerlines and stuff whether he believes in it or not. He has that kind of mechanical mind. Nick's mom is an anthropologist and she likes modern civilization a lot. (I don't dare argue with her. I just listen.) Her favorite people are the Maya with their big temples. I think she considers them primtive, though I do not. She and Nick are always pulling the lifespan/disease card. I'm not up to speed on the arguments for primtive lifespan but even if it was shorter I'd rather be happy and in relatively good health and live 40 years than depressed and tired like I am now and live 80.

I have trouble practicing my primtive skills around Nick. He's only sort of into them. He doesn't practice anything on his own except for observing birds and animals. He thinks trapping and coal burning and stuff is so easy that he doesn't need to practice, even though he hasn't tried. He also hates Tom Brown for no good reason. He hasn't read much of his writing. Mainly he doesn't belive you can tell things like the sex or emotion or if the stomach is full by the pressure releases. Now, I've never seen it myself, but I am open to the possibility. Anyway I can't say anything about what Tom Brown recommends or he gets all,  "fuck Tom Brown".  And when I am working on a project he offers me advice or criticism that I don't really care for since I am already usually frustrated as hell, "You should hold your knife like this" or "I think a fish can get out of there." But if I ask  for help or have questions about tools and don't know how to use them he looks at me like I am dumb or makes me do it myself and then laughs at me when I don't know what I am doing.

He joined the forum for a day but I kicked him off because I didn't want him trying to argue with anything I wrote or making fun of things you guys said which I know he would. (I feel protective of my rewilding friends)! We definitely don't speak the same language. He's never read Jensen or Quinn or anything like that and doesn't understand what I mean when I'm talking about a Pauite trap. I've written a lot so maybe I'll talk about my family and friends and other relationships later, but that's where I am at. It can be difficult.

[Kaliverdant]

Are you subversive or secretive?

Bingo.

I'm pretty much a "closet" primitivist, with no plans yet for "coming out". I just don't live among people who are receptive to anything remotely deviant from the status quo. They're a great crowd for suppressing their own thoughts on it on the grounds that it's "unrealistic", "fantasising", and "won't do anything for your CV". You all know the type I'm sure.

It's to the point where openly declaring my views would have me sorta blacklisted, so I keep it under my hat. Sometimes I'll respond with corrections whenever people reel off some misperception of primitive peoples, or I'll give primitive societies as examples to back up my point ("you know, we got on just fine without [suchandsuch] for 2 million years, It's really not that important").

The search for receptive folks continues... till then I'm clandestine with it.

[Peter Bauer]

Emily,

Just to throw this out there, Jason at Anthropik wrote a great article on the whole primitive peoples life span vs. indigenous peoples.

http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-25-civilization-reduces-quality-of-life/

But yeah, I think for the time being we're all kind of "stuck." In time, more people will start to see through this shit, and our primitive communities will grow. I think.

[Willem]

I'd like to throw out the idea that we may go through a kind of arc or series of steps with the whole rewilding thing - (kindof like the stages of grief).

1st: Totally pumped and razzed. Want everybody to know about the news that civilization can't last, and that we can only benefit from this fact. Playing with the idea of rewilding yourself. Lots and lots of arguments.

2nd: Shocked by the amount of people that not only don't give a shit, but even feel threatened by just the idea. Doing a moderate amount of rewilding. Lots of arguments.

3rd: One by one, discover a small group of people who get "the news", and like it. This takes the pressure off a bit of feeling "all alone". Depending on one's temperament, doing anything from a moderate to a lot of rewilding. Still some arguments.

4th: So busy enjoying the fruits of rewilding that you don't care anymore what other people think, though you still respond intelligently to direct questions. Found ways of rewilding that don't fit into what your teachers told you about, so that you spend a lot of time reflecting instead of working on your bowdrill skillz. Question yourself whether sometimes you should "reach out" to more people. Mostly (from experience) see that as really idiotic evangelical behavior. But deep in your heart wonder if you see yourself in the little girls and boys you run across who'd just die and go to heaven if you mentored them, even a little bit.

5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th-1000th steps yet to show themselves. But I'll tell you when I get there.

[Penny Scout]

Thanks for the link scout. I will have to read more of Jason's stuff sometime. With those guys plus kevin tucker and his woman plus cathy pedlar at mercyhurst we really could have a Western PA tribe.

But I don't expect to meet another primtivist to date unless they moved here specifically to be with me. I'm not moving. I don't care if other people believe the same things as me. I just don't want to argue and if I can't find support I just want to be left alone. That's my main goal in life. No one to criticize me and tell me what I ought to do. That shirt is ugly, you should do this, you should think that, that's a stupid idea, get a job, get off the computer, pick up your dishes. For God sakes just leave me alone! Yeah I have people issues. I think I will probably end up in a hermit cabin like Kaczynski.

As for people I've actually met and are close to who believe in this stuff there are none. I'm definitely the closet primitivist type. Some of my friends know from myspace but we don't really talk about it. My parents don't know at all about the political aspects. They think I just like survival skills. My sister knows but she's an anthropology major (I think the field despite it's relevance creates more civ lovers than the opposite, much like environmentalism. Colleges mostly just reinforce the beliefs that create the need to go to colleges.) I think she just wrote a paper about the benefits of human self-domestication. But I find her non-threatening. With my influence as the older sister I bet I could convince her if I wanted. Maybe I should try and talk to more people, I might find them surprisingly agreeable, but arguing just isn't my thing.

Past two relationships it was a semi-issue. One guy was a philosopher and film/music lover but he always supported my primtive ideas. We never argued but we broke up because he moved to Brooklyn and partly because of my primtive leanings and partly just because I'm me I couldn't handle the city thing.

The other guy was a history buff. He wanted to live in 1846. So we shared the hatred of modern society, and technology for the most part, but he didn't take it far enough. He was stuck on antiques and fine things and would have been turned on if I wore a full length dress with petticoats. Meanwhile I'm a crazy savage with no underwear and a if I can't ruin it or lose it, I don't want it mentality about my belongings. I was quite pleased to see that idea referenced in that article Jason wrote. I don't like being a slave to my goods. I'm almost glad now that the only two expensive things I've ever owned were stolen, (a camera and a snowboard). 

[jhereg]

Wow, good question.

My wife read Ishmael shortly after I did (at my recommendation). This was actually only a few short years ago. I'm fortunate that we had similar reactions; we both agreed that if it were possible we'd gladly be transported to a primitive community (as long as we had the skills, knowledge, etc). Peak Oil has been a little bit different, in a few ways. It actually started w/ my brother-in-law, who came across it and freaked. Once it sank in, I did too (spent the next 3 hours pacing through the house, not talking). At the time, the two ideas hadn't intersected, I was overwhelmed by visions of mass die-off. Once I had started to adjust, my B-in-L sat down w/ me and my wife and we all went over some things. Today it stands at: I'm the one actively seeking out the most primitive skills & horticulture, my wife is working to reduce our household consumption (and pick up a few low-tech skills; canning, soap, crochet), my B-in-L isn't actively doing anything at the moment, but he's still onboard with it and I can talk to him about it.

I don't go around to people all "We're killing the earth!" or "Peak Oil! Global Warming! Mass Extinction!" or even "We need to become more sustainable". But I do slip in "food for thought" when the opportunity arises. If I hear people in the office talking about gas prices, I mention that it's probably because we're running out, maybe toss out Hubert's Curve. If someone tells me they're thinking about doing some landscaping, I recommend "The Complete Book of Edible Landscaping". Too many deer in a given region? What about re-introducing wolves or stop killing off coyotes? Stuff like that.

Waaaaaay back when I was a Christian(TM), I remember hearing "Don't beat the beggar over the head with the bread", meaning don't start accusing people or attacking them over their choices, because, quite frankly, that does a lot more to drive people away than it does to convince them of your stand. So I don't engage in argument unless I'm pretty sure the person in question is capable of handling an actual debate, instead, I resort to the indirect means of suggesting alternative viewpoints found above.

I just don't want to argue and if I can't find support I just want to be left alone. That's my main goal in life. No one to criticize me and tell me what I ought to do. That shirt is ugly, you should do this, you should think that, that's a stupid idea, get a job, get off the computer, pick up your dishes. For God sakes just leave me alone! Yeah I have people issues.

Amen!

I think I will probably end up in a hermit cabin like Kaczynski.

I know it sounds simplistic, but give it time.

I'd like to throw out the idea that we may go through a kind of arc or series of steps with the whole rewilding thing - (kindof like the stages of grief).

Oh, definitely. But let's not forget the stages of grief, which, for many people, has to happen before they even get this far....

[Penny Scout]

As for the stages I first went through an excited phase where I was on the track to being a cutting edge green architect/ecological designer and we were going to save the world and live in ecotopia.   

Second came a very guilty sustainable phase where I never drove and spent tons of money buying local organic and hoarded little bits of paper and toilet paper tubes and fretted over things like how many times a day to wash my face.

Third I went through an angry phase where I smashed lightbulbs and gave away most of my belongings and seethed at the pavement and the cars on the streets.
 
Fourth I went through a depressed listless phase where I wore a lot of black and sat on the street all day watching people, drinking with tramps, and shoplifting for my living.

Fifth I went through a spiritual phase where I went to yoga camp and read lots of new age books and tried to think only positive thoughts so only good things would happen to me.

Sixth I gave it all up. Now I drive if I want, buy what's cheapest, watch TV, am skeptical of spiritual bullshit. Basically I do what is easy. All that stuff, going against the grain, took too much energy. I use all my energy now for rewilding.

I didn't even look at the stages of grief before I wrote this but here is one model :

Shock is the first stage. It is accompanied by disbelief and numbness.

Denial follows quickly, crying "I don't believe it," or "It can't be."

Bargaining is your promise that "I'll be so very good that maybe I can wake up and find that it isn't so. I'll do all the right things if only...."

Guilt is painful and hard to deal with. This is when one says over and over, "If only I had..." or "If only I had not..." This is a normal feeling and ultimately it may be solved by stating, "I'm a human being and I gave the best and worst of me to my friend (child, husband, etc...) and what he or she does with that is his or her responsibility.

Anger is another big factor which seems to be necessary in order to face the reality of life and then to get beyond it. We must all heal in our own ways. Anger is a natural stage through which we must pass. Your anger at your deceased loved one may even make you feel guilty, or it may be because your own life continues whereas your friend's life is over.

Depression is a stage of grief that comes and goes. Knowing this, be prepared to give yourself time to heal. Resignation is a late stage. It comes when finally you accept the truth.

Acceptance and hope! Understand that you will never be the same but your life can go on to find meaning and purpose.

As you can see, all those stages are there!!!  I just lumped shock/denial into one happy save-the-world phase and experienced bargaining (spiritual phase) after depression. This kind of shines new light onto the last seven years of my life. No wonder I was so screwed up! haha.

[WildeRix]

"Don't beat the beggar over the head with the bread"

Wow, that's good advice.  I wish more Christians^TM would hear that.  Unfortunately, most of them feel like they'll never get through to the beggar until he has been bread-bludgeoned.

I try to avoid going evangelical with rewilding, sowing seeds of thought only where I feel certain that they'll land on fertile ground and not be choked out by the invasive plants of civilization.  A main component of feral living seems to be the conservation of your personal energy, so I don't waste mine anymore on people that can't handle the message yet.

I see a lot of parallels between the rewilding philosophy and the mentalities I grew up with in Christianity.  Your stages of grief/rewilding, Willem, could just as easily apply to a newly converted Jesus Freak.  The guilt we all often feel over not rewilding enough, or in the right way, or as much as the next person is not that different from the guilt of being a sinner who can't measure up to the expectations laid out in scripture.

To me, the Good News^TM of the feral movement is that there is nothing inherently wrong with humanity.  But even once you embrace that, you're still stuck in the midst of a 10,000 year old movement to destroy the earth and wipe out anyone who doesn't think that Civilization is the one right way for human kind to live.

We can't kid ourselves about the fact that to "them" we look like ones who are doing it wrong.  And we also look too much like all the ones who came before us trying to break out of the prison with Peace^TM Love^TM and Hemp^TM.

The biggest problem I had after reading Quinn could be summed up by the fact that I though "Sure, there's no one right way for man to live, but this civilization has to be the one wrong way for man to live."  And I hated and/or was sickened by everyone that didn't at least want to "get out".  I had to grow up and get over my hate before I could ever do any good for the feral movement.

Now I realize that there is also no one right way for us to rewild.  Penny can sleep in a pile of leaves; Urbs can eat roadkill; Willem can eradicate the verb "to be"; I can make minnow traps on my front porch; jhereg can get his daughter excited about gathering walnuts; others of you may already be living in the woods or eating only what you can kill/gather yourself; others may not have moved past the point of getting these ideas into you mind.  As long as we're headed for the same ultimate goal of being free (from rent, groceries, jobs) we're all on the same journey.

The problem comes when you try to live your life journey with someone who is not headed for the same goal.  You tether yourself together with love, but can that tether withstand the tension of being pulled in different directions?  I don't think any kind of relationship where the individuals have diametrically opposed mindsets can last very long.

[Penny Scout]

I should give my friends more credit. I mentioned the Mid-Atlantic Primtive Skills meet and my old high school friend Ronna who I used to, like, watch Dawson's Creek and share boys with and was like "That's so cool! I really wish I could go!"

What you never shared any boys?

I should have been more perceptive. She is a Jean Auel fan.
 

[dedomesticator]

Hopefully they come around!  What can one do? 

[dedomesticator]

Better yet!!! What can two do 

Better yet!!! What can three do 

Better yet!!!  What can four do

...five

...6, 7, 11, 28, 29, 30, 48, 76, 83, 87, 137, 208, DO

I don't know everything.  But I know "one" starts things.

[WildeRix]

That's awesome about your friend Ronna, Penny.  No, I never did share any boys.  But I did watch a lot of Dawson's Creek.  I thought Dawson was a total dweeb.  My wife and I really started getting into the show when the whole Pacey/Joey thing started--their relationship was pretty similar to the way ours started.

I don't know everything.  But I know "one" starts things.

I like that, dedomesticator.


On the subject of non-believers in my life:

I think my blog has started stretching some limits with my non-believing friends and family.  My cousin read and responded to my latest post--which was very anti-civilization mindset and also pretty unchristian.  I grew up among the Southern Baptists in the south and was preaching in local churches from the age of 15, went to college to get a degree in Biblical Studies--so the old crowd knows me as that preacher boy.

At first I was kind of mad at myself for maybe pushing things to far in a forum where my old crowd tends to see my word (I advertised my blog via a MySpace bulletin, not thinking about my cousin being on my friends list).  But then I was glad that it happened.  She's probably not in any place to get these ideas offered to her otherwise.  Who knows if the Heber Springs, Arkansas, public library would even carry a copy of Ishmael?  And responding to her comment made me have to think more about my own ideas and how I wanted to present them.

In short, something that initially kind of scared me turned into something that actually made me feel better.