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[incomplete]

Reading this post by Urban Scout (http://www.rewild.info/conversations/index.php?topic=766.0) I remembered something that happened to me some years ago. It doesn't have anything to do with Urban Scout's post, but it just reminded my of it.

Some years ago some friend took me to a ritual in which we would give thanks to the Mother Earth for the harvest. There was about 10 people involved, including some shamans. About the middle point of the ritual I realized I was not feeling good about the whole thing; and it was not only because the shamans wanted to burn things, but also because I don't feel thankful, I feel ashamed.
I had a big discussion with my friend about this.

I think all the damage our ancestors have made to the Mother since civilization started well deserves the annihilation of us all. I was even talking about this with a christian priest years before of the thanking ritual, when i was still keeping some respect for the church.
I can not feel good in a thanking ritual since I can not feel thankful. I think we have just taken, and taken, and taken for so many centuries.. and giving nothing back but poison. Taking! taking! taking! taking! taking! that's what we have done, and still do, and will keep doing as far as we live inside of the civilization. Then, how would a shame ritual be? I really feel we deserve a massive extinction... I should have biology when on the university.

This is just my feeling, i'm not criticizing anybody, and don't want anybody to feel bad about it.
Anybody feels the same?

[liana vine]

I agree, I personally have a lot of shame and guilt to process. Also anger.

My personal feelings and thoughts may be different. I'm kind of going from what you said and sharing my experience.

I think I've processed a lot of my larger mounds of guilt and shame. Though that doesn't mean that I don't still have things to feel shame for. What I mean instead, is that I had a phase where my focus was on my shame, and in order to take any further action or process anything following, I had to deal with that huge mound first. It was like a blockage inside of me that needed to be addressed and grieved for before there could be room for anything else to flow through or settle in. I think that guilt and shame are connected to the grieving ritual. I think that guilt and shame are like grieving for those I feel like I'm letting down.

I also agree that while there are some things to be thankful for, I don't think we're in a time of luxury to be celebrating anything yet. I don't know about you or everyone else here, but personally I've been thinking more along the lines of what Derrick Jensen and Lierre Keith have said about how the longer we wait for civilization to end on it's own, it's going to devour everything to keep itself chugging along until there's just nothing left to feed it--or anyone else.

I've been emphasizing to people lately that their work to heal themselves or to process their grievances, shame, and joys is good. But if it's done as an end in itself, all I can say is "Great. Good for you." I want people to keep in mind that it's necessary, but as a step towards action. I've started to read that some rituals for healing don't address this, and so people just wind up feeling a little better temporarily (or just feeling better and thinking they don't need to worry anymore), but things which bring you and I shame will continue to happen.

I agree, until civilization comes down, we will not have much to be thankful. I think that thanking each other as a form of support (along with material support, like food, shelter, the things communities are supposed to share) does give us energy to keep doing our work to decolonize ourselves as well as the land we depend on. But there is a danger in becoming complacent. I think the work that some of us do can be satisfying, but we need to remember to remain humble, and always be learning how to expand on that little bit of satisfying work. This may sound like that determination to better ourselves, but I think if it is only done for the sake of ourselves and our own satisfaction, and not for the land that gives us life, then it is in the end, pointless.

I think calling it a 'ritual' sometimes confuses people (in that we think of a larger gathering, or large ceremony type deal), and there have been some ceremonies and such that bring strangers together to share their griefs or joys. It seems to me that some of these, while intending to help, don't do these griefs justice. I've found it's always better to just open them up to a close friend, or even agree with a group of close friends/family/partners to spend a day alone together, just opening up and expressing the shame or grief to it's fullest.

I don't think we should expect many people to get on board with understanding the need for grief and shame. All this knowledge of destruction takes a lot of emotional stamina, and I think that may be why so many people fear simple negative feelings. (That, and we've grown up under the influence of those who want to divert us from the negative so that we don't question or act to change their ways). I think there are some who have the capacity to begin understanding this though. I've found some friends who were relieved I was willing to bring it up, like they had things themselves they needed to spill out. You mentioned talking with your friend about this. Do you think they or any other friends would agree to sharing their shame along with their griefs?

[timeLESS]

Lately ive been slipping into a depression. I have really shut myself off the last years, because looking around at this world hurts. But some days ago i was trying to open up  & really feel. What i felt was shame, anger and sadness. But mostly shame. I was watching the plants and trees growing and i felt really unworthy and ashamed of myself. I tried to make up to them by letting them know i'm sorry and lost here but yeah, i felt so uncomfortable.

[Joe]

I have a different view of this. To hold oneself responsible for all the problems caused by civilization is feel responsible for you great uncle who beat up some little kid. It doesn’t mean that you don’t react and deal with the situation, but I cannot be held responsible for some other person’s actions. I am reacting to the situation I am in and that is my personal rewilding journey.

Therefore, I am still thankful every day. When I see or experience something terrible I still grieve over it, but I can’t feel shame, unless I had something to do with it. When I learn something new, or harvest something or anything like that I am still thankful. Whether we deserve it as a species or not, nature is still giving, and we should partake of what is given to us, and we should be thankful about being able to partake of nature. But then it is our responsibility to try and give back.

I don’t want anyone feeling that I don’t realize how precarious of a situation we are in, but I remember that civilization will fall. It has to. Civilization cannot destroy the planet. Urban Scout mentioned in his Resistance vs. Rewilding piece that it is not a situation where nature is resisting some seemingly unstoppable juggernaut. Nature is just doing what is always does and civilization is trying to resist it, and it will fail.  The question is how many of us will be when that happens.

[incomplete]

Right that, a lot of anger. For me, some years ago, spending some days in the forest was enough to forget about it for some time, but now it seems it wouldnt work any more.
Now I'm becoming some kind of misanthropist in the context of civilization.

I think I've processed a lot of my larger mounds of guilt and shame.

I wish i could process mine somehow. Some times, when bad things happen to me, i just feel it is kind of fair compared to the amount of damage i make just by living in the civ way.

I also agree that while there are some things to be thankful for, I don't think we're in a time of luxury to be celebrating anything yet. I don't know about you or everyone else here, but personally I've been thinking more along the lines of what Derrick Jensen and Lierre Keith have said about how the longer we wait for civilization to end on it's own, it's going to devour everything to keep itself chugging along until there's just nothing left to feed it--or anyone else.

I think "luxury" is a really good word for it. Some times some civ "alternative" people ask me why I am so sad, "why not a smile?".... and I just think: is there anything to be happy about? Pretending that everything is alright will make any change?

Some times I think consuming more would be a nice way to help accelerating a collapse. Make some kind of huge propaganda net encouraging regular people to consume more worldwide 
And about attacking the industrial system,... i think Theodore Kaczynski was right on thinking that helping it to collapse in a quick way would be extremely complicated. Moreover, who is right now ready to live out of civilization? And even worse, we the ones who try to learn, keep isolated and separated by thousands of kilometers, scattered  the whole world around.
Seems as time passes, the influence of the civ way of thinking gets stronger in everybody and we become more and more individualistic... I mean, the more we wait to get together, the less chances for a rewild way of living to survive after an eventual collapse.
(sorry i went a bit out of the topic of the post)

... I've started to read that some rituals for healing don't address this, and so people just wind up feeling a little better temporarily (or just feeling better and thinking they don't need to worry anymore), but things which bring you and I shame will continue to happen.

I think this temporary relief could be compared to the feeling after a visit to a therapist  . Takes you out of reality for a moment "yeah, everything is ok, i dont need to worry anymore"

.... I think that thanking each other as a form of support (along with material support, like food, shelter, the things communities are supposed to share) does give us energy to keep doing our work to decolonize ourselves as well as the land we depend on. But there is a danger in becoming complacent. I think the work that some of us do can be satisfying, but we need to remember to remain humble, and always be learning how to expand on that little bit of satisfying work. This may sound like that determination to better ourselves, but I think if it is only done for the sake of ourselves and our own satisfaction, and not for the land that gives us life, then it is in the end, pointless.

I totally agree with that. One of the problems with living in a tribe when civilizations is still running could be becoming less aware of all the shit that's going on around. In the times when i was much more focused on attacking the civ, i was tempted to go with Thierry Sallantin to live in the French Guayana, but discarded this option as it would keep me away from any chance of acting against civ.
Now i just focus on learning how to live out.

I think calling it a 'ritual' sometimes confuses people (in that we think of a larger gathering, or large ceremony type deal), and there have been some ceremonies and such that bring strangers together to share their griefs or joys. It seems to me that some of these, while intending to help, don't do these griefs justice. I've found it's always better to just open them up to a close friend, or even agree with a group of close friends/family/partners to spend a day alone together, just opening up and expressing the shame or grief to it's fullest.

To tell the truth, I am quite against any kind of ritual. I feel they are just another way of separating things. Like when the christians stopped getting together in houses and started to make churches (and money  ) I really like methods, effective ways of doing things. But i think anything beyond this is just some kind of protocol. Like written rules on how you have to do it. I feel good thanking a tree when I take some part of it for food or medicine (and when medicine, apologize for not taking enough care of myself) or thanking a catch for its meat... but I really dont like when all the stuff about feelings or spiritual gets somehow disconnected from everything else.

I don't think we should expect many people to get on board with understanding the need for grief and shame. All this knowledge of destruction takes a lot of emotional stamina, and I think that may be why so many people fear simple negative feelings. (That, and we've grown up under the influence of those who want to divert us from the negative so that we don't question or act to change their ways). I think there are some who have the capacity to begin understanding this though. I've found some friends who were relieved I was willing to bring it up, like they had things themselves they needed to spill out.

Amen.

You mentioned talking with your friend about this. Do you think they or any other friends would agree to sharing their shame along with their griefs?

I would be very happy if i can ever find some friend with which i could do so.
It was just some kind of discussion what i had with my friend, i think probably rooted on her " fear of simple negative feelings" as you say.

Lately ive been slipping into a depression. I have really shut myself off the last years, because looking around at this world hurts. But some days ago i was trying to open up  & really feel. What i felt was shame, anger and sadness. But mostly shame. I was watching the plants and trees growing and i felt really unworthy and ashamed of myself. I tried to make up to them by letting them know i'm sorry and lost here but yeah, i felt so uncomfortable.

You are not alone in this depression state. Some times in the city i found myself almost crying hugging an old tree, thinking about the shitty life we forced it to live for so long years...

I have a different view of this. To hold oneself responsible for all the problems caused by civilization is feel responsible for you great uncle who beat up some little kid. It doesn’t mean that you don’t react and deal with the situation, but I cannot be held responsible for some other person’s actions. I am reacting to the situation I am in and that is my personal rewilding journey.

I don't mean what happened in the past is our responsibility , I mean as long as we participate in civilization we are responsible for any kind of damage it makes. But anyway, I feel responsible of the past as at a species level. I don't know how to explain it better. I am not responsible of the mutilations on this tree in the side walk, but it was somebody of my same species, somebody who participates in civ as much as i do. I am part of it, no matter how much i dislike it.

[bereal]

Great discussion, very vital for all of us traveling on this path.  It reminds me of a fabulous book I read recently ("My Name is Chellis and I'm in Recovery from Western Civilization") that connects the trauma that so many of us feel personally with the cultural trauma going back to the first disconnection of nature that occured with the development of agriculture (what she calls "original trauma").  Its the cycle of abuse perpetuated on a societal level.

In a way we are all complicit in the destruction and abuse caused by the dominant culture - participating in it means we all have blood on our hands, just indirectly instead of directly.  But its also true that we weren't given a choice, and that refusing to participate at all is pretty much impossible, because of all the many ways the system has developed to coerce and control us.  We totally do need to take responsibility for the destruction we are helping to cause, by exerting the power that we do have (which is a LOT more than we think), but we also need to NOT take responsibility for what we have no power over.  The latter would be akin to a victim of abuse blaming themselves for what happened to them.  Basically, we need to place the responsibility where it truly belongs, and at the same time reclaiming the power that we do have. 

The thing that keeps me from hating myself, or hating civilized humans in general (rather than their actions, which is a very different thing), is dedicating my life to something outside myself - namely, protecting and healing the earth and my people.  By reciprocating - giving back - I free myself to be receive from the earth with gratitude and without shame.

[incomplete]

The thing that keeps me from hating myself, or hating civilized humans in general (rather than their actions, which is a very different thing), is dedicating my life to something outside myself - namely, protecting and healing the earth and my people.  By reciprocating - giving back - I free myself to be receive from the earth with gratitude and without shame.

what you call Reciprocating i call redemption, and is my greatest dream. But would probably take generations to be possible in a rigorous way (may not be this word). I mean... learning how to live in a way that doesnt take part at all in all this destruction (i think everybody around here knows what kind of life i am talking about) and becoming so good at it that you start having enough free time to start giving back more that you receive. Like balancing the equation a bit. Growing forests where agriculture made barren lands, helping plants which used to be abundant to propagate, ...
The thing is ... if i could achieve such a level of awareness and wisdom... would it be of much use (or possible) while civilization is still going on??