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[heyvictor]

In reading this I'm finding the labels to be kind of useless to tell you the truth.  They generally lead to a lot of confusion and misconceptions about what a persons spiritual practice actually is.

All the "isms" and "ists" don't really tell me anything about what someone does or how they relate to their world unless I have read all the same books that they have.

And then, is it really any of my business anyway?

I have caught myself wanting to share the path that I follow with others and I always have to stop and ask myself, honestly, why do I want to do this? Do I think it will help them? Do I think that the spirits are not capable of finding this person and touching them in a meaningful way? Do I think I know what's best for this person? Am I trying impress them? Am I enjoying the shock value? I enjoy talking about these things but I try to keep an awareness of the dynamic that is happening between myself and the other person.

My teachers tell me to be careful and not to talk about these things frivolously. Be aware of who I am talking to and why.

My suggestion is don't try to pigeon hole yourself. If you say "I am this" or "I am that"  what happens to that identity when you are not that anymore.

Recently, my wife and I took a young girl into our home as a foster child. She'll be living with us until she is an adult. We had to be thoroughly checked out by the social services to be approved for this. So the subject of our religious orientation came up. It was an interesting thing to try to explain the path we follow. One worker googled it and came up with things that she was not comfortable with. So I had to explain further what various things mean and the significance of them and how anthropologists have misunderstood the ceremonies and written bogus stuff that has been put in the literature and all that. We did get it straightened out but it was a stretch for her. I appreciate her openness and willingness to get past a cultural bias.

So this is an example of the label being fairly useless. It meant nothing to her, or even a big negative, until we could actually spend time together and I could explain more.

[Little Spider]

In reading this I'm finding the labels to be kind of useless to tell you the truth.  They generally lead to a lot of confusion and misconceptions about what a persons spiritual practice actually is.

All the "isms" and "ists" don't really tell me anything about what someone does or how they relate to their world unless I have read all the same books that they have.

Right, read the same books or had the same or similar experiences.  The -ists and -isms are really place holders for ideas about personal experiences and practices.  Unfortunately, in conversation I have experienced the draw backs of labeling myself as one thing or another.  Many times people talk to me seeking to pigeon-hole me so that I am not longer a threat or potential threat to them.  It is the fear of the unknown  and a need to belong that makes us want labels for ourselves and others.

I understand TJ's place right now, because a few years back I was there too.  I was seeking a name for what it is I do or don't do so that it would become part of the identity I was creating for myself.  I think that is a natural part of our progression for adolescents into adulthood.

Now, I am in a place where the labels are becoming less significant everyday to me personally and seem to get in the way of true communication and understanding.

I have caught myself wanting to share the path that I follow with others and I always have to stop and ask myself, honestly, why do I want to do this? Do I think it will help them? Do I think that the spirits are not capable of finding this person and touching them in a meaningful way? Do I think I know what's best for this person? Am I trying impress them? Am I enjoying the shock value? I enjoy talking about these things but I try to keep an awareness of the dynamic that is happening between myself and the other person.

It is so vital to ask ourselves these questions.  Often in conversation I get more of a feeling of intimacy from sharing stories with the other person than I do with exchanging labels.  It is our experiences and the stories we tell about them to ourselves and others that makes us who we are, in large part.

There is a quote I always have attached to my messages on another forum that captures how I feel about this quite concisely:

We are always in the process of becoming and nothing is fixed. Have no rigid system in you and you'll be flexible to change with the everchanging. Open yourself and flow at once with the total flowing now. - Bruce Lee

I enjoyed the Spirit Geek name... that is a funny one.  I will have to share that one.

[Tj]

you know a lot of what you guys are saying makes perfect sense, and i have thought of before as well. I usually use the name as a foot in the door. I haven't gotten in yet, but the foot will help make sure the door is never closed. I think part of it is also shock value, but u must understand why. When heyvictor talked of his experiance with a certain label he used while explaining the path he follows. I know exactly what u mean. My reason for giving the shock is to show people "look this is not true, things are NOT what they seem". For me  a label is a way of getting someones attention.

But you know what in the end of the day, ur right, language itself is human creation, and it's about as good as any other human creation, utterly useless for anything but a short time. But that's my point, language is a tool for understanding, its not a precise tool or a good one at that, but it gets my foot in the door.

Most of the time though I use labels such as "animism" or "shamanic" to save myself some time, in explanation. Instead of  explaining what animism is when asked my veiw of the world, i simply say "i have an animistic view of the world". Most people have some idea what it means, so they say "o ok". Those who don't will say "i dont know what it means" and i will have to explain. For those who do not further question, they obviously don't care they just wanted a word. (like joey in friends says "well, i saw smthg i heard a word, i thot thats what it was!"), they don't care like joey in that scene, WHAT that word meant really, just that there is something there and it has some name. For those that DO ask further, I will explain further, I like sharing my beliefs with people.


In short...labels and names like other parts of language are just tools. I recognise that, whether or not i ever knew the word Daoism, does not change how i see the world, but said word has its own importance, as a tool.

For example to me there is no individualism or ownership. This is pretty oobvious from my behaviour in daily life, u'll notice it pretty quick, most people do. But i still use I and You. Just to make things easierr, cuz im lazy. At the end of the day it comes down to that, im lazy, if i can give someone a half an understanding with 2 words rather than a full one with half an hour of talking, i'd rather do option #1, and put in couple of words to ensure no grave misunderstandings. And also due to the fact that i generally suck at explaining things in a brief period of time, so i'd rather use labels that are defined by people, so they can go on their own understanding of the labels.

Although u know what i realised yesterday, most people i talk to abt this i end up explaining my beliefs from start to end and making them see for themselves what i believe in rather than leaving it with a couple of vague labels that will be interpreted wrong most of the time.

-Tj

[Richard]

I usually use the name as a foot in the door. I haven't gotten in yet, but the foot will help make sure the door is never closed.

A few years ago I was briefly interested in the topic discussed here - and i read a little bit about it, on the web if memory serves. One of the stories of someone claiming to have become a healer in some capacity or another told of multiple bouts of drug addiction, suicide attempts, car accidents, heavy things falling on them, etc. & went on to explain how these sorts of ordeals were common ways of getting a 'foot in the door'.

It would seem that a healers first patient is themselves. I can also remember reading somewhere, and I don't think I can verify this, that wounds are the portals through which spirit can make a home, if they find the decor pleasing.

I recollect thinking: as someone who wasn't wounded or afflicted I see zero reason to go out & seek those risky issues in order to change my lot in life - I wanted then, and by my estimation still do, to pursue useful endeavors as my gifts merit, and I wanted those to be sincere. Sincere in relation to all my relations.

That sincerity is what keeps that particular wanting to be from becoming a wannabe situation.   I could even step it up and say I will be sincere, or I will foster heaps of sincerity, whatever the linguistic craze is round hree...

I think I, like tho others here, have some sense of where you're at right now. You see truth in the belief that we are at all times in the mix with intelligences, and you see the severity of the situation which is the interplay of modern human means with those intelligences. & that's great, that's cool, I love it and I love hearing that, but why does that realization and your chosen actions have to be called    anything.?

IF a group of people decides to call me something, well, I'll shrug and do my thing all the same - be that label   fool, laughingstock, hero, sage, whatever, lowliest disgusting worm, biggest deepest dude you've ever seen, whatever. Y'know whadImean, TJ? I already have one specific name [Hi everyone I'm Richard (:], I don't require another more general one.
 
To put this another way,, As a fisherman it wouldn't matter to me if I net a school of guppies, someone will be fed, or, like the story of The Old Man and the Sea, hook a catch which begins a dangerous, unpredictable and, dare I say, wild adventure.

[barefootrobb]

Dao-ish Ecstatic Technician, maybe?
Sounds a bit like a rave DJ.

[lizard]

Agree with the term 'shaman' -- the more I read about it and experience life, the more I realize how deep and difficult that path is, and how we in the West still barely understand what is going on there. Needs a lot more respect, definitely.

So I realize how ignorant it would be to ever call myself a shaman, but I do like the term animist lately. Or if people don't get that, I say I'm into 'nature spirituality.' I believe terms should be used, and defended and updated when necessary, so maybe in the future if you want to adopt a child the agency won't be afraid of your religion.

My personal opinion on the relation of animism to shamanism is that animism is a world view/belief system (you believe that all forms of matter and energy have some type of consciousness and may potentially respond to you in a reciprocal relationship), and that shamans are specialists in that system who know more than the rest of us about how to keep those relationships working in balance.