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16
Spiritual Technology / Re: Shamanism or is it? need help
« on: June 22, 2008, 07:56:46 PM »Quote
In reading this I'm finding the labels to be kind of useless to tell you the truth. They generally lead to a lot of confusion and misconceptions about what a persons spiritual practice actually is.
All the "isms" and "ists" don't really tell me anything about what someone does or how they relate to their world unless I have read all the same books that they have.
Right, read the same books or had the same or similar experiences. The -ists and -isms are really place holders for ideas about personal experiences and practices. Unfortunately, in conversation I have experienced the draw backs of labeling myself as one thing or another. Many times people talk to me seeking to pigeon-hole me so that I am not longer a threat or potential threat to them. It is the fear of the unknown and a need to belong that makes us want labels for ourselves and others.
I understand TJ's place right now, because a few years back I was there too. I was seeking a name for what it is I do or don't do so that it would become part of the identity I was creating for myself. I think that is a natural part of our progression for adolescents into adulthood.
Now, I am in a place where the labels are becoming less significant everyday to me personally and seem to get in the way of true communication and understanding.
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I have caught myself wanting to share the path that I follow with others and I always have to stop and ask myself, honestly, why do I want to do this? Do I think it will help them? Do I think that the spirits are not capable of finding this person and touching them in a meaningful way? Do I think I know what's best for this person? Am I trying impress them? Am I enjoying the shock value? I enjoy talking about these things but I try to keep an awareness of the dynamic that is happening between myself and the other person.
It is so vital to ask ourselves these questions. Often in conversation I get more of a feeling of intimacy from sharing stories with the other person than I do with exchanging labels. It is our experiences and the stories we tell about them to ourselves and others that makes us who we are, in large part.
There is a quote I always have attached to my messages on another forum that captures how I feel about this quite concisely:
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We are always in the process of becoming and nothing is fixed. Have no rigid system in you and you'll be flexible to change with the everchanging. Open yourself and flow at once with the total flowing now. - Bruce Lee
I enjoyed the Spirit Geek name... that is a funny one. I will have to share that one.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: Shamanism or is it? need help
« on: June 21, 2008, 09:48:00 PM »
Dan, I understand your point about the appropriation of the word "shaman" and agree with you. Though, personally I have not found another term as convenient nor simple and direct as "shaman" when discussing this topic with others that fit as well for me.
I have never known anyone who has talked to the Tungus people of Siberia and had them complain about taking this word and including it in the English language. I am not sure it would really be an issue, since it is just a single word from their culture. They have bigger fish to fry with the Russian government trying to suppress their practices and their culture.
I don't think that most people who use the word understand its full meaning nor its implication. This is unfortunate. As is the number of people out there calling themselves shaman in our culture. I think many misunderstand the word, and think that it is a label they can pin on themselves for status and recognition.
I have never known anyone who has talked to the Tungus people of Siberia and had them complain about taking this word and including it in the English language. I am not sure it would really be an issue, since it is just a single word from their culture. They have bigger fish to fry with the Russian government trying to suppress their practices and their culture.
I don't think that most people who use the word understand its full meaning nor its implication. This is unfortunate. As is the number of people out there calling themselves shaman in our culture. I think many misunderstand the word, and think that it is a label they can pin on themselves for status and recognition.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: Shamanism or is it? need help
« on: June 21, 2008, 03:45:43 PM »Quote
Anyways getting to my original question: if i called me path "shamanic daoism" or something similar, does anyone see any problems arising from that. well MAJOR ones at least, since (going by what you said) daoism = belief, shamanic = the practice. And i think by that the animism part should be obvious. plus it sounds "cooler". [Ok ok, thats the wrong reason, but i AM human, and i like to indulge myself sometimes and try to sound "cool". So no one comment on that please].
Haha. Well said.
I don't really see a problem with calling it "shamanic taoism." You might consider that in China, shamanic taoism might be something very different though. The label might fill a role for you now that you are needing. Some day, you may find that the label drops away altogether. Or not.
I sometimes say that in my philosophy I am most like a Daoist, in the way I experience life I am an animist and in my spiritual practice I am shamanic. The labels make it convenient to talk about, but we need to also be aware of their limitations.
I think it is a human need to feel that we want to belong. Labels help us feel that we are part of certain clubs and not others. Help the ego believe it has an identity of one sort or another. That we are that identity.
But sometimes... just sometimes... we have those experiences where the labels fall away and no words or thoughts can encompass them. That I believe is where Spirit lives...
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Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 21, 2008, 03:32:17 PM »
Just got The Tao Speaks in the mail, and read it in one sitting. Last time I read it was 5 or 6 years ago. I noticed the light hearted and playful manner in which it was written and illustrated, and how that contrasts sharply with other translations I have read that were very scholarly.
I have a friend who is a strongly intellectual type thinker, and recently discussed the Tao Te Ching with him. He was of the opinion that the translations which are best are those done by the strict scholars of chinese texts. My take on it is that those scholars might be the ones with the LEAST understanding of the Tao. In my experience, the more I allow life to flow around me and inside me without trying to force it into some intellectual framework, the closer I feel to the Tao.
This is why I found the Tao of Pooh books to be some of the best taoist books I have ever read.
Not being able to read the Tao Te Ching in its original chinese, I must say that it is possible that I am totally wrong. Perhaps the most scholarly interpretations are the best, but that is not my intuitive feeling.
I have a friend who is a strongly intellectual type thinker, and recently discussed the Tao Te Ching with him. He was of the opinion that the translations which are best are those done by the strict scholars of chinese texts. My take on it is that those scholars might be the ones with the LEAST understanding of the Tao. In my experience, the more I allow life to flow around me and inside me without trying to force it into some intellectual framework, the closer I feel to the Tao.
This is why I found the Tao of Pooh books to be some of the best taoist books I have ever read.
Not being able to read the Tao Te Ching in its original chinese, I must say that it is possible that I am totally wrong. Perhaps the most scholarly interpretations are the best, but that is not my intuitive feeling.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: Shamanism or is it? need help
« on: June 21, 2008, 02:03:08 PM »Quote
So yes i am hesitant to call myself one, but if someone asks me I say shamanic daoism anyways.
I think that is wise. I practice certain shamanic activities, but never call myself a shaman. A "shamanic practioner" can be okay, too.
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Coming to another point, what IS the difference between animism and shamanry. To me animism is a belief, shamanry is a way of practicing said belief. You have a belief, so what do you DO about it, that would be shamanry.
That is certainly one way of looking at animism and shamanism. To me, animism is not a belief but a form of experience. It is an awareness that everything around you is alive, aware and responsive. It does not require you to believe anything in particular.
In the traditions I have learned shamanism from, a shaman takes on whatever belief he or she needs in order to cause a positive change in another person, a situation or a relationship. The question might be: you have a belief, so what do you do WITH it?
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To me we are all part of the "Dao" or the flow of nature. dao is the "great spirit" or "brahman" so to speak. So what do i do with this belief, i recognise that if that be the case then i should be able to ask the other spirits for help.
I have been thinking a great deal about this. I feel sometimes that in one way, animism is the experience of the awareness and communication with the life around you and in you. Shamanism is like taking that experience and using it to heal someone else. Your beliefs then, are simply the things you use to convince your mind that it is possible to apply that experience and use it to cause healing.
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I follow my inner nature, the flow of dao that is in me (de or atman), knowing that it is what connects me to the rest of Brahman. I ask the spirits for help when i need it, and try to help them if they ask. I achieve said task using shamanry as a tool. Since it is an age old tried and true way of communicating with the spirits. Anwyas thats just me, and that is why i sometimes use the word shamanic to describe my spiritual practices.
Makes sense to me.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: Rewilding and Paganism
« on: June 18, 2008, 05:53:50 PM »
pathfinder, your link is not working.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: Rewilding and Paganism
« on: June 14, 2008, 04:38:48 PM »Quote
In this conversation we also need to account for the impact of 'classical pagan belief' on the land...namely the desertificaiton of the mediterranean and the mideast.
You mean the Greeks? Why do you say they caused the desertification? Do you have any info to read about that?
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I hope that didn't sound too poopy. Smiley But I mean it sincerely. I think the condition of the landbase tells us a lot about the sustainability of the religion/ethic/relationship of the people.
Every place has its own unique energies and spirits. Bringing your gods with you to a new land or worshiping gods that are at odds with the land certainly can cause a lot of problems.
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Sigh. I can't quite articulate it, but somehow this particular subject leaves me with odd mixed feelings.
As we rewilders move away from our Taker ancestors ideas about the world and move back towards ideas more in line with the Leavers (our much older ancestors) we are bound to run into some mixed up feelings now and again. I know I certainly do!
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Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 14, 2008, 02:56:04 PM »
Just ordered my very own copy of THE TAO SPEAKS by the same author. From my research, buying any of the books in this line including Zhuangzi Speak is cheapest on amazon even with shipping included.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 13, 2008, 03:49:42 PM »
Thanks, Willem. I will have to check out Chen's translation.
One of my favorite translations is:
Amazon: The Tao Speaks: Lao-Tzu's Whispers of Wisdom
Also, if you like Chuang Tzu (another great Daoist thinker), I recommend this:
http://www.amazon.com/Zhuangzi-Speaks-Chih-chung-Tsai/dp/0691008825/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1
I have this one, and find it a great read. Not everyone is a fan of the comic strip style of translation, though. I find it very complementary to the more strict scholarly translations of the TAO TE CHING which at times can be so dry they nearly crack when you pick them up to read them, and so full of jargon they make even an experienced scholar's head spin.
Hahaha! I think we are all nerds here of one kind or another.
[edited by mod to shorten link]
One of my favorite translations is:
Amazon: The Tao Speaks: Lao-Tzu's Whispers of Wisdom
Also, if you like Chuang Tzu (another great Daoist thinker), I recommend this:
http://www.amazon.com/Zhuangzi-Speaks-Chih-chung-Tsai/dp/0691008825/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1
I have this one, and find it a great read. Not everyone is a fan of the comic strip style of translation, though. I find it very complementary to the more strict scholarly translations of the TAO TE CHING which at times can be so dry they nearly crack when you pick them up to read them, and so full of jargon they make even an experienced scholar's head spin.
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as a side note, any accusations of nerdery in this matter will receive a prompt affirmation.
Hahaha! I think we are all nerds here of one kind or another.
[edited by mod to shorten link]
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Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 11, 2008, 11:13:38 PM »Quote
Having grown up Christian I can remember a few parables from the Bible that are still meaningful (the passage with the "lilies of the field" for instance) but I personally feel that in general, as a spiritual guide the Bible contains deep, irredeemable flaws.
I don't want to be perceived as getting on a Bible-bashing high horse here, but I agree with you. There are spoken as well as unspoken and implicit things in the Bible that I believe to be flawed which I have great difficult in getting around or accepting when I read it. Like you though, I do find inspiration in some of the passages.
Though, when it comes to inspiration ever single passage in the TAO TE CHING is inspiring to me! So as a spiritual text, I find it much more effective. Also, the nice thing about the TAO TE CHING is there are so many various translations that it is easy to find one that matches your tastes.
Here is a good passage:
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When the world is governed according to Tao,
Horses are use to work on the farm.
When the world is not governed according to Tao,
Horses and weapons are produced for the frontier.
No crime is greater than that of ambition.
No misfortune is greater than that of discontentment.
No fault is greater than that of conquering.
Therefore, to know contentment through contentment
Is to always have enough.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 11, 2008, 04:12:39 PM »
Pathfinder, can you share some breathing practices with us here?
Sounds perfectly inline with rewilding.
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How this relates is that a lot of this info. focuses on the fact that we can all thrive with actually having a lot less and doing a lot less and eating more wild plants and foods. In fact, stepping away from civilization might be the best way to nourish life both individually and collectively.
Sounds perfectly inline with rewilding.
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Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 09, 2008, 11:34:06 AM »
I have read a bit on religious Daoism, and can definitely see the similarity to Shinto. Although it tends be a pragmatic religion, I have not found much in it that I can use in rewilding. Yet, I can see why and how it might make sense in Chinese culture.
Though, I do tend to have a streak of shunning religious dogma.
Perhaps we can discuss the uncarved block and effortless action here a little bit so that folks who are unfamiliar with the concepts can make sense of what we are saying.
The concepts of yin/yang tend to be familiar to most people. They are useful to really understand, even though they might sound so basic. They are representations of all the complementary forces and manifestations in the world, such as: dark and light, male and female, hard and flexible, ugly and beautiful, and so on. I often hear people say that they are opposites, but I think to say this is to miss something of their inherent unity. In western thought, we tend to think of things such as beauty or ugliness as separate.
But can one exist without the other?
If everyone was beautiful, how would you know it if there was nothing to contrast it too? If everyone was tall, how would you know without someone short to contrast that too?
In the yin/yang concept is also the knowledge of what happens when we run to extremes. Extremes do not last long. An intense storm is short lived. Those people who run on full-throttle all the time are likely to die young. In THE TAO OF POOH, Hoff calls people who act this way "busy backsons." Another wards, they are always busy and will be back soon. They are never still or present, but always pursuing the greener grass on the other side of the fence. Extreme sports junkies are a classic example of a busy backson.
By the way, heyvictor I loved your story of the fire-crackers in the pocket! Made me laugh out loud. That's the way I want to be sent off!
Though, I do tend to have a streak of shunning religious dogma.
Perhaps we can discuss the uncarved block and effortless action here a little bit so that folks who are unfamiliar with the concepts can make sense of what we are saying.
The concepts of yin/yang tend to be familiar to most people. They are useful to really understand, even though they might sound so basic. They are representations of all the complementary forces and manifestations in the world, such as: dark and light, male and female, hard and flexible, ugly and beautiful, and so on. I often hear people say that they are opposites, but I think to say this is to miss something of their inherent unity. In western thought, we tend to think of things such as beauty or ugliness as separate.
But can one exist without the other?
If everyone was beautiful, how would you know it if there was nothing to contrast it too? If everyone was tall, how would you know without someone short to contrast that too?
In the yin/yang concept is also the knowledge of what happens when we run to extremes. Extremes do not last long. An intense storm is short lived. Those people who run on full-throttle all the time are likely to die young. In THE TAO OF POOH, Hoff calls people who act this way "busy backsons." Another wards, they are always busy and will be back soon. They are never still or present, but always pursuing the greener grass on the other side of the fence. Extreme sports junkies are a classic example of a busy backson.
By the way, heyvictor I loved your story of the fire-crackers in the pocket! Made me laugh out loud. That's the way I want to be sent off!
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Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 08, 2008, 09:50:17 PM »
Pathfinder, whats your take on The Tao of Pooh and Te of Piglet books?
I know they are simple, but personally I have found them to be a great introduction to Tao. Again a good intro to the concepts of uncarved block and effortless action.
If I had to come down to it, I would say in my philosophy I am a Daoist and if their is a "religion" for me it is the animistic view of the world. They are very complementary.
Taoism is a potent philosophy to carry into the world through the rewilding process. I have not found much use personally for religious Daoism, though. What benefit do you find religious Daoism can bring to us rewilders?
I know they are simple, but personally I have found them to be a great introduction to Tao. Again a good intro to the concepts of uncarved block and effortless action.
If I had to come down to it, I would say in my philosophy I am a Daoist and if their is a "religion" for me it is the animistic view of the world. They are very complementary.
Taoism is a potent philosophy to carry into the world through the rewilding process. I have not found much use personally for religious Daoism, though. What benefit do you find religious Daoism can bring to us rewilders?
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Tracking & Awareness / Re: "Being Quiet" or "Civilized People are Loud and Stupid"
« on: May 19, 2008, 10:47:35 AM »
I think that one of the major reasons people seek noise, and avoid being quiet with/by themselves is because silence puts them in touch with who they really are. When you sit totally alone and quiet, it is a powerful experience. This is why the sit spot, despite its simplicity can be so useful. It is not just observing nature, but observing the self that comes from sitting in silence.
Our ego needs us to keep blabbing and banging away, so that it can feel its separation and specialness through that separation. Once you are silent, you start to feel this deep connection to everything in and through your body. Music is great, but if you use it to keep Silence at bay then you are afraid of your true nature.
That "wrongness" is a fear that crops up from the ego, a fear of destruction... the ego is afraid to die. Silence puts you in touch with your mortality... especially in an extended form, such as a Vision Quest.
Silence might just be the greatest re-wilding tool we have. Matt, try to sit with and in, silence for at least 15 minutes a day. Come back and tell us what you experience after a week. Are you up for that?
Our ego needs us to keep blabbing and banging away, so that it can feel its separation and specialness through that separation. Once you are silent, you start to feel this deep connection to everything in and through your body. Music is great, but if you use it to keep Silence at bay then you are afraid of your true nature.
That "wrongness" is a fear that crops up from the ego, a fear of destruction... the ego is afraid to die. Silence puts you in touch with your mortality... especially in an extended form, such as a Vision Quest.
Silence might just be the greatest re-wilding tool we have. Matt, try to sit with and in, silence for at least 15 minutes a day. Come back and tell us what you experience after a week. Are you up for that?
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Spiritual Technology / Re: Talking to Your Other-than-human Self
« on: April 25, 2008, 10:14:25 AM »
Thank you, Curt. That sounds like a beautiful story!
There a quite a few stories out there of people being helped or even raised by wolves. That seems so far fetched to some that they excuse it away as impossible, because the wolf's reputation is one of an evil and destructive creature. But wolves are caretakers... both ecologically and socially.
There a quite a few stories out there of people being helped or even raised by wolves. That seems so far fetched to some that they excuse it away as impossible, because the wolf's reputation is one of an evil and destructive creature. But wolves are caretakers... both ecologically and socially.