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1
Spiritual Technology / Re: Ghosts and Spirits
« on: September 01, 2008, 07:02:45 PM »
Selkie, I enjoyed reading about your experiences.
I also saw ghosts as a child of 4 or 5. I remember having a man come into my room, through the 5 story window night after night. He was not particularly scary, but I did wake up and scream at times when I saw things in my room. The worse part I guess, was that no one in my family knew what to do about it.
One night, in the same apartment I was attacked by a spirit that took demonic form. It choked me and I was quite sure I was going to die. A light showed up and told me to pray, so I did. Then as I watched, the demon exploded into light and disappeared.
I have had encounters with spirits on and off since then, but not usually ghosts.
How is it relevant to re-wilding? I don't know specifically. But, I know that having a good relationship with the many beings without bodies that inhabit our world, whether city or wilderness seems a wise idea
To tribal peoples in many places, interacting with spirits is an everyday affair. It is good to see that is starting to change, all be it very slowly, in our culture.
I also saw ghosts as a child of 4 or 5. I remember having a man come into my room, through the 5 story window night after night. He was not particularly scary, but I did wake up and scream at times when I saw things in my room. The worse part I guess, was that no one in my family knew what to do about it.
One night, in the same apartment I was attacked by a spirit that took demonic form. It choked me and I was quite sure I was going to die. A light showed up and told me to pray, so I did. Then as I watched, the demon exploded into light and disappeared.
I have had encounters with spirits on and off since then, but not usually ghosts.
How is it relevant to re-wilding? I don't know specifically. But, I know that having a good relationship with the many beings without bodies that inhabit our world, whether city or wilderness seems a wise idea
To tribal peoples in many places, interacting with spirits is an everyday affair. It is good to see that is starting to change, all be it very slowly, in our culture.
2
Common Misconceptions / Re: Rewilding: A Battle?
« on: August 03, 2008, 10:57:19 AM »
What I said in response to your statement was not a disagreement, but re-reading it again several times I can see how it might sound that way.
I wanted to help create and maintain more clarity around DQ's work. After reading IF THEY GIVE YOU LINED PAPER WRITE SIDEWAYS, I felt that I meet readers of ISHMAEL sometimes who, like Quinn mentions, are confused about the works. I am not implying that you or anyone here is necessarily confused, though. But given the amount of people who traffic through this site, it would be great to help hold a lot of clarity around DQ's message.
I think that the local ISHMAEL community discussion groups are a great resource that should be used on top of reading his books. His website is pretty good too.
Hope that cleared things up.
Quote
I think reading the book is not enough...
Even Daniel Quinn himself admits that many people get confused about his works, and says so pretty plainly in IF THEY GIVE YOU LINED PAPER WRITE SIDEWAYS.
DQ also states that he is not prescribing a particular action, he is only giving a description of what is going on and why. I think that should be made clear when using him as a reference for how re-wilding should be outlined.
I wanted to help create and maintain more clarity around DQ's work. After reading IF THEY GIVE YOU LINED PAPER WRITE SIDEWAYS, I felt that I meet readers of ISHMAEL sometimes who, like Quinn mentions, are confused about the works. I am not implying that you or anyone here is necessarily confused, though. But given the amount of people who traffic through this site, it would be great to help hold a lot of clarity around DQ's message.
I think that the local ISHMAEL community discussion groups are a great resource that should be used on top of reading his books. His website is pretty good too.
Hope that cleared things up.
3
Common Misconceptions / Re: Rewilding: A Battle?
« on: August 02, 2008, 10:24:00 PM »Quote
In my last post did you think I was trying to say that all one had to do was just read ISHMAEL to understand why civilization is killing the planet?
Nope.
Just pointing out that it is only a starting point.
With all the conversations we've had Curt, that would seem silly.
4
Rewilding Mind & Heart / Re: What the bleep...
« on: July 24, 2008, 11:01:47 AM »Quote
Well Little Spider, I have my own judgemental prejudice/demons to wrestle with sometimes.
Don't we all.
Are you interested in sharing about that? Or is that off limits?
I feel it might encourage more people to voice their opinion if you did, but that's just my thought.
5
Common Misconceptions / Re: Rewilding: A Battle?
« on: July 24, 2008, 11:00:16 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I look forward to more.
Curt,
Years ago, I took a college class about fish biology & environmental management where the professor required us to read ISHMAEL. This is actually how I came upon it the first time. In hindsight I am incredibly thankful for that. He also had us do weekly discussion groups relating to what we read in the book.
Since it was a early level college class, I was amazed that around half the people who read it actually missed the messages within. They only came to realize them once we were in the weekly discussions. Even them, some got rather glazed expressions when we discussed what I felt was pretty serious and timely issues. The teacher's assistant who ran the discussion groups was pretty amazing, so I didn't think it was presented in a boring way.
Some people just chose to consider what they were gonna have for lunch or what shade of lipstick they were gonna buy, instead of the messages in the book. But to my eyes and ears, most of the class got it.
I think reading the book is not enough...
Even Daniel Quinn himself admits that many people get confused about his works, and says so pretty plainly in IF THEY GIVE YOU LINED PAPER WRITE SIDEWAYS.
DQ also states that he is not prescribing a particular action, he is only giving a description of what is going on and why. I think that should be made clear when using him as a reference for how re-wilding should be outlined.
Curt,
Years ago, I took a college class about fish biology & environmental management where the professor required us to read ISHMAEL. This is actually how I came upon it the first time. In hindsight I am incredibly thankful for that. He also had us do weekly discussion groups relating to what we read in the book.
Since it was a early level college class, I was amazed that around half the people who read it actually missed the messages within. They only came to realize them once we were in the weekly discussions. Even them, some got rather glazed expressions when we discussed what I felt was pretty serious and timely issues. The teacher's assistant who ran the discussion groups was pretty amazing, so I didn't think it was presented in a boring way.
Some people just chose to consider what they were gonna have for lunch or what shade of lipstick they were gonna buy, instead of the messages in the book. But to my eyes and ears, most of the class got it.
I think reading the book is not enough...
Even Daniel Quinn himself admits that many people get confused about his works, and says so pretty plainly in IF THEY GIVE YOU LINED PAPER WRITE SIDEWAYS.
DQ also states that he is not prescribing a particular action, he is only giving a description of what is going on and why. I think that should be made clear when using him as a reference for how re-wilding should be outlined.
6
Rewilding Mind & Heart / Re: What the bleep...
« on: July 23, 2008, 08:35:27 PM »Quote
There are aspects of the production that I had to get past in order to get to the useful stuff.
Care to elaborate?
7
Rewilding Mind & Heart / Re: What the bleep...
« on: July 23, 2008, 12:05:54 PM »
I enjoyed it.
It was cool that it was shot in Portland.
Personally though, I would not know how relevant different people might find it to rewilding.
I find that many of the ideas discussed in the movie are things I have integrated into my life and world view. It certainly has had many positive effects. Perhaps, the most important is a reminder of how my thoughts effect how I experience reality.
It was cool that it was shot in Portland.
Personally though, I would not know how relevant different people might find it to rewilding.
I find that many of the ideas discussed in the movie are things I have integrated into my life and world view. It certainly has had many positive effects. Perhaps, the most important is a reminder of how my thoughts effect how I experience reality.
8
Common Misconceptions / Re: Rewilding: A Battle?
« on: July 22, 2008, 11:45:20 PM »
Thanks Willem.
What's your opinion on this question?
What's your opinion on this question?
9
Common Misconceptions / Rewilding: A Battle?
« on: July 21, 2008, 10:12:42 PM »
Regarding:
"So, would you say that rewilding can be called a battle or form of war?"
I forgot to add that I am not pulling that out of no were, I am asking because Urban Scout mentioned "the front lines." Given that you guys are some of the people heading this movement, I figure you would be good folks to ask.
"So, would you say that rewilding can be called a battle or form of war?"
I forgot to add that I am not pulling that out of no were, I am asking because Urban Scout mentioned "the front lines." Given that you guys are some of the people heading this movement, I figure you would be good folks to ask.
10
Common Misconceptions / Rewilding: A Battle?
« on: July 20, 2008, 12:56:16 PM »
Urban Scout, thanks for the clarification.
I think I was a bit confused about something.
My understanding of rewilding was that it was not a culture in itself, rather it was a catalyst for dismantling civilization.
The point I made about wilderness schools was that help teach people how to be in a group somewhat like a tribe, the intensity of which depends on the school.
But, you clarified by stating:
I find I am learning a great deal here.
So, would you say that rewilding can be called a battle or form of war?
I think I was a bit confused about something.
My understanding of rewilding was that it was not a culture in itself, rather it was a catalyst for dismantling civilization.
The point I made about wilderness schools was that help teach people how to be in a group somewhat like a tribe, the intensity of which depends on the school.
But, you clarified by stating:
Quote
Wilderness awareness and Primitive skills do not lead to sustainability. The point being; even the first civilizations had primitive tools and wilderness awareness and permaculture and skin on frame boats. In order to teach sustainability, you have to teach the philosophy and science behind rewilding. That is what defines rewilding. That is why rewilding is different than primitive skills, different than wilderness survival, different than permaculture, different than wilderness awareness, different than "getting back to nature", etc. While those elements have to do with rewilding, rewilding refers to a rather large cultural context for using those skills. Without understanding the difference in context, you make the term rewilding just another buzz word for getting back to nature. It loses all meaning and continues to perpetuate civilized mythology.
These schools do not teach the history of civilization and how/why agriculture is destroying the planet, nor how indigenous horticulture/hunter/gatherers encouraged biodiversity and egalitarianism. This information is paramount to understanding rewilding and understanding stewardship. So what if you know what berries are edible? Do you know when and how to harvest them so there will be more growth the following year? So what if you know that information if civilization is going to bulldoze it all next year.
I find I am learning a great deal here.
So, would you say that rewilding can be called a battle or form of war?
11
Spiritual Technology / Re: Do you pray?
« on: June 30, 2008, 04:55:50 PM »
Author Daniel Quinn described an experience that might be called animistic in nature, in his book Providence. His experience occurred while he was working in a monastery.
Here it is, quoted below:
I post this only with the intention of sharing. I don't think anyone can be "converted" to animism, and I certainly wouldn't try!
Also, at the risk of being judged harshly and/or misunderstood I wanted to share my blog with ya'll:
http://weaveyourdream.blogspot.com/
Here it is, quoted below:
Quote
I went last, stepped over the threshold, turned around to close the door, then turned back to face the sunshine.
And the god spoke.
I put it this way. I could put it other ways. I could say that, when I turned to face the sunshine, the veil that clouds our vision was gone from my eyes, and for the first time I saw the world as it is.
There are no words for it.
Someone blind from birth can't imagine what the sighted mean by color, can't fathom what this property might be. If all language were the product of a blind race, the word color would not exist, and if one of that blind race were suddenly to become sighted, he would be unable to describe what he saw; the words would simply not be there for him to use, and this is the way it is for me: The words are simply not there.
But I can put it other ways, and I will, because that's what I can do.
I turned and faced the sunshine, and the breath went out of me as if someone had punched me in the stomach. That was the effect of receiving this sight, of seeing the world as it is. I was astounded, bowled over, dumbfounded.
I could say that the world was transformed before my eyes, but that wasn't it--and I knew that that wasn't it. The world hadn't been transformed at all; I was simply being allowed to see it the way it is all the time. I, not the world, had been transformed.
I'm trying. Be patient. We've reached the single most important hour of my life, and I have to get it right, have to come as close as I can to getting it right.
I gasped, literally gasped. I lost my breath, seeing that.
Everything was on fire.
I can say it that way, but when you say that something's on fire, you think of the fire as being on it,--as a substance that is on the thing.
That wasn't it.
Everything was burning. Yes, that's better. From within, everything was burning.
Every blade of grass, every single leaf of every single tree was radiant, was blazing--incandescent with a raging power that was unmistakably divine.
I was overwhelmed. In a single second of this, of seeing this truth, tears flooded my eyes and poured down my face as I walked along behind the novices. It was strange to see fence posts sitting dead and silent and cold in the midst of this tremendous, thrumming effulgence.
In this vast, scintillating landscape, my nearsightedness was of no account at all. For as far as I could see, for hundreds of yards, thousands of yards, I could distinguish with absolute clarity each leaf, each blade of grass--no two alike anywhere. Each was crackling and trembling and all but exploding with the raging power that animated it.
Again I describe that power as raging. Look into a furnace blazing at its top capacity. Look into the heart of a nuclear reaction perhaps. The power that I saw thundering around me makes all our stock images of power seem feeble. But there was no violence or hatred in this rage. This was a rage of joy, of exuberance. This was creation's everlasting, silent hallelujah.
You know the sparklers they sell around July 4th. The world was ablaze with sparklers. Every blade of grass, every leaf of every tree wascharged with energy--packed, jammed, evanescent with energy, which radiated forth into the air irresistability. The whole landscape pulsed, breathed, moved, was made iridescent with this energy. I think, with what can be done in film today, I could produce a cinematic approximation of what I saw. It would be magnificent, but you would of course know it was just a trick. What I was seeing was reality, was the world as it actually is, every moment of every day....
No, no, I wasn't in a trance. I wasn't in anything remotely like a trance. I was gathering kindling, for God's sake! I had trailed the novices for awhile, walking through the madly radiant land, then had been signed[The novices only used sign language] to head off into the brush to get started. So there I was, stooping and picking up sticks, and breaking them across my knee or leaning them up against a rock to stamp them into smaller lengths, and making pile that would later be loaded into a cart, and all the while tears were pouring down my cheeks like a waterfall. I was lucky I was working alone, though I don't think I would have felt the least self-conscious about my tears if there had been dozens around me. Who could have cared? Certainly not me.
It lasted for about an hour. The radiance just faded away, gradually subsided, and the world resumed its normal appearance. The rest of the crew came along, and we loaded up the kindling and headed back.
I post this only with the intention of sharing. I don't think anyone can be "converted" to animism, and I certainly wouldn't try!
Also, at the risk of being judged harshly and/or misunderstood I wanted to share my blog with ya'll:
http://weaveyourdream.blogspot.com/
12
Spiritual Technology / Re: Do you pray?
« on: June 30, 2008, 02:25:08 PM »Quote
I can inform you that I indeed know nothing of animism. However, a brief lookup in dictionaries indicates definitions such as "the doctrine that all natural objects and the universe itself have souls" and "the belief that inanimate objects and the phenomena of nature are endowed with personal life or a living soul". At this point in my life, I can say I don't believe much in animism.
The problem with dictionary definitions is that they force everything in the world into a manageable, pigeon-holed frame which can be dissected neatly with the intellect.
In my experience, animism is not a kind of faith or belief system, though it is often labeled as such by well-meaning but confused anthropologists.
There is nothing to believe... it is just a form of experience that grows naturally from spending time in and being fully present with the natural world around us. I don't need to believe in the sun's awareness or that butterflies awareness, I just experience them as aware. This kind of experience was generally very foreign to white westerners when the pilgrims landed on the East Coast of this country. Such experiences to them were reserved for only their saints. It continues to be generally foreign to Westerners.
The concept of someone experiencing the life around them as aware to the western intellectual mind demands an explanation. The most convenient is to stick it in the category of a "belief system."
The idea of things in the natural world have souls is a Christian interpretation of the animist experience.
I don't think that "non-believers can't possibly have respect for the world around them" is true. For starters, in my mind animists are generally not "believers" of any kind. Most animists I have met became animists because of their experiences. They didn't go down a list of belief systems and say,"Oh, I like this one."
Though, I do believe that when you experience the awareness of the life around you can not easily continue treating life indifferently. I don't think that if people in our culture started "believing" in animism that the world would be a better place. I do think, however, that if lots of people in our culture got to experience the awareness of life they would feel more connected to the natural world and would feel a sense of duty to caretake our planet more, instead of consuming resources without stopping.
Quote
I think my true problem is that I haven't been granted the opportunity to truly "be one" with nature. I'm a total nature nut, but my lack of a vehicle means I can't even head out camping in the middle of nowhere on weekends. As a matter of fact, I've never been camping in my entire life (which believe me, is the single fact that crushes me more and more every day). I really need to get away, if only for a week, and enjoy some serious one-on-one time with the elements. At least then I could have a more educated opinion based on first-hand experience.
Yeah. Its that one-on-one time from which the animistic experience grows.
13
Spiritual Technology / Re: Do you pray?
« on: June 29, 2008, 02:05:20 PM »Quote
I'm beginning to wonder if the birds singing in the morning are also praying (in their way) to the rising sun. No scientific evidence against it!
I like to think of the birds as singing the world into being every morning. The dawn chorus is powerful, especially during the spring-summer time. I have had some profound spiritual experiences with the dawn chorus, and have felt how their songs come together to sing up the sun and weave the world we see together.
There is no doubt in me that bird song goes far beyond what they are believed to be for as understood by scientists: territoriality, sex and so on. I am trained as a scientist, to so this is not to make them out to be wrong.
Isn't it interesting how Westerners can take for granted that humans can be spiritual and have spiritual experiences, but don't believe that animals can have them as well?
As I write this, the Bewick's wren that is nesting in my yard is singing loudly. I can also hear the song sparrow singing one of its songs in my neighbors yard.
Quote
That is interesting. I try to go out most days at sunset and pray to the sun, thanking it for my life and food for the day. I'd do it at sunrise but I'm lousy at getting up that early unless I'm camping Tongue
There was a time when I woke up everyday with the Dawn Chorus, which this time of year starts around 4 am.
14
Spiritual Technology / Re: Do you pray?
« on: June 29, 2008, 10:43:56 AM »
Misko, loved your story about praying for kisses!
Reminds me of a great book I picked up in Hawai'i called IMAGINEERING FOR HEALTH by Serge Kahili King. I also recommend URBAN SHAMAN.
Both books teach how to use imagination to help shape your personal dream and those of the people, creatures and things around you for the better. I should back track and say that one of the principles of Huna (the system that in these books) makes the assumption many traditional cultures make: The world is as you dream it. And to add to that, everything is dreaming.
I wrote half a response to your message yesterday, then deleted it and promised myself to come back. I felt your message needed more digesting.
I am certainly one who fully believes that we can affect the minds of others for the positive. It is what I work towards everyday. There are certain challenges when working with humans that you don't face when doing the same kind of work with trees, dogs, clouds and other things like that. One of the major ones in our culture is that humans are somehow better and more special than all other creatures. That can set up quite a bit of resistance to change.
From the shamanic or imagineering perspective, there are many ways to create change in the minds of those around you.
Lots of ways to influence minds out there.
One of my favorite is tapping into a persons current dream and adding to or changing it some how. You must first make and accept the assumption that people are dreaming all the time, 24-7.
How you tap into the dream is up to you, but one method Serge King describes works well for me. Vividly imagine their dream going on right above their heads. Let come what may, no need to force it. If you see a dark, stark landscape with a big storm over it then play with it for the better. Have the clouds break, and sun come down. Have it rain, and have flowers pop up all over. Have the birds show up and start singing, and so on.
It can work wonders on peoples mood and outlook. The dream change technique does not force anything to happen, rather it is more like a vivid suggestion to their body-mind. Since the body-mind tends to move towards pleasure and away from pain, the more pleasurable you make it the better. Even if their dream appears perfect, you can still change it for the better.
You can use the same technique on yourself, and more specifically on various parts of your body that need healing i.e. heart, fingers, knee and so on. It can have powerful results. Effectiveness takes focus and sometimes, persistence.
Our imagination is a muscle, in western culture it is generally discouraged. It is a powerful tool for shaping our experience, it is not just a silly thing used only by children or artists. The most effective shamans and healers around tend to use it to create positive change. So, why shouldn't we?
One thing to think about is that all humans have basic needs for safety, comfort, love, and so on. Keeping that in mind, how might we use techniques for changing their minds to help them connect more powerfully with the life around them?
Quote
"...immersive sensory experience of the imagined outcome..."
Reminds me of a great book I picked up in Hawai'i called IMAGINEERING FOR HEALTH by Serge Kahili King. I also recommend URBAN SHAMAN.
Both books teach how to use imagination to help shape your personal dream and those of the people, creatures and things around you for the better. I should back track and say that one of the principles of Huna (the system that in these books) makes the assumption many traditional cultures make: The world is as you dream it. And to add to that, everything is dreaming.
Quote
What does all this have to do with this topic of prayers ?
Well, to me this suggests that like behaviors, prayers probably can travel far and can also be received by other beings. So far, probably nothing new for anyone here. But what if we could somehow "incite" change among humans this way too. And since what we'd be affecting would be the ideas, thoughts, visions of the people who are open to this new or
more "vivid" vision or idea. And since ALOT starts at this level, if not everything. Revolutions start like this. The "Law Of The Great Peace" of the Iroquois started out with a vision or idea.
Possibly everything we materialize starts out as an idea, feeling, vision, dream, etc. Good or bad, I'd add.
I wrote half a response to your message yesterday, then deleted it and promised myself to come back. I felt your message needed more digesting.
I am certainly one who fully believes that we can affect the minds of others for the positive. It is what I work towards everyday. There are certain challenges when working with humans that you don't face when doing the same kind of work with trees, dogs, clouds and other things like that. One of the major ones in our culture is that humans are somehow better and more special than all other creatures. That can set up quite a bit of resistance to change.
From the shamanic or imagineering perspective, there are many ways to create change in the minds of those around you.
Quote
What do you think ?
Any ideas ?
Lots of ways to influence minds out there.
One of my favorite is tapping into a persons current dream and adding to or changing it some how. You must first make and accept the assumption that people are dreaming all the time, 24-7.
How you tap into the dream is up to you, but one method Serge King describes works well for me. Vividly imagine their dream going on right above their heads. Let come what may, no need to force it. If you see a dark, stark landscape with a big storm over it then play with it for the better. Have the clouds break, and sun come down. Have it rain, and have flowers pop up all over. Have the birds show up and start singing, and so on.
It can work wonders on peoples mood and outlook. The dream change technique does not force anything to happen, rather it is more like a vivid suggestion to their body-mind. Since the body-mind tends to move towards pleasure and away from pain, the more pleasurable you make it the better. Even if their dream appears perfect, you can still change it for the better.
You can use the same technique on yourself, and more specifically on various parts of your body that need healing i.e. heart, fingers, knee and so on. It can have powerful results. Effectiveness takes focus and sometimes, persistence.
Our imagination is a muscle, in western culture it is generally discouraged. It is a powerful tool for shaping our experience, it is not just a silly thing used only by children or artists. The most effective shamans and healers around tend to use it to create positive change. So, why shouldn't we?
One thing to think about is that all humans have basic needs for safety, comfort, love, and so on. Keeping that in mind, how might we use techniques for changing their minds to help them connect more powerfully with the life around them?
15
Spiritual Technology / Re: American Dao
« on: June 24, 2008, 05:00:37 PM »
According to some shamanic traditions, you can visit religious and philosophical masters in the Spirit World. This is the case in the one I was trained in.
He hangs out in the Upper Worlds realm of the Spirit World. You can do a shamanic journey to visit him. Though, I would suggest going there only when you are in real need of assistance.
Give it a try and see what happens. Pay close attention to anything that comes up...
He hangs out in the Upper Worlds realm of the Spirit World. You can do a shamanic journey to visit him. Though, I would suggest going there only when you are in real need of assistance.
Give it a try and see what happens. Pay close attention to anything that comes up...